Syrian Air support?

[Flanker15]

I found a post saying that the Syrians only have artillery support, why not air support as well?. It's not like they don't have their own air force. Did some further reading and found they have a complement of 50 Mig-29s so they're a match for any NATO fighters. The rest are dated Migs which might still have some use. They also have a completment of Mi-24s and other fast attack helicopters so they've got good helicopter support aswell.

[ May 08, 2007, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Flanker15 ]

[Sergei]

Because all their fighters would be blown to bits and pieces before any ground attack even got started.

[Dirtweasle]

Sergei has it.

[MikeyD]

...and if the planes weren't literally 'blown to pieces' there would at least be evenly spaced craters running the lengths of all their runways.

[Sergei]

And if despite the initial cruise missile and air strikes some Syrian underground Thunderbirds base survived, AWACS wouldn't miss their take-off.

[Dirtweasle]

In which case they'd be blow to bits in the sky or

[Flanker15]

So I'm guessing this is set after the Air battle is decided and the Syrian air force didn't win.

Oh well I guess I can always set up a blue on blue scenario if I want equal forces.

[drbassie]

Any ground engagements would happen after the battle for the skies is over. The Syrian Air Force would have zero chance.

[Homo ferricus]

even Iraq knew better, they had a sizeable air force and yet they never once even launched a fighter or chopper against the US in the 2003 invasion, they sat in reinforced concrete hangers, where they probably stood their biggest chance for survival.

[Dirtweasle]

I thought by '03 the Iraq Air Force was actually not very sizable at all. Would have to double check but my recollection is they never recovered from the Gulf War and were down to an operational sqdrn of Foxbats or somefink.... no?

[Bonxa]

It might be of interest to add just token air support for the syrians for use in Red on Red scenarios however. It can't be very hard for BF to put in there since it doesn't require any extra modelling. Just make it like the most basic US air attack.

[Homo ferricus]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

I thought by '03 the Iraq Air Force was actually not very sizable at all. Would have to double check but my recollection is they never recovered from the Gulf War and were down to an operational sqdrn of Foxbats or somefink.... no?

well, i read it out of some magazine (Jane's?), soon after the initial invasion, right before all the insurgent activity started up. It mentioned that Iraq still had a sizeable Air Force (well, several dozen assorted MiGs, some hinds, hips, other random assorted choppers, and some other fighter/bombers like something from the Su series i think) that could of had limited (actually probably none) use during the invasion, yet not a single aircraft was launched, i'm not sure if they even sent up helos for transport, which would be very strange. But then again, the article was barely even post-invasion, so perhaps the numbers they had could of been inaccurate.

And then i remember the next article was something about Romania joining NATO...

[Battlefront.com]

The Iraqis' surviving airforce post Gulf War 1 was probably larger than what the Syrians have. The Iraqis thought the best tactic twas to bury their planes in the desert instead of using them. Funniest pictures I can recall from the early invasion days. Australian SAS, IIRC, found a whole bunch.

The Syrian Air Force has been neglected for years. I have an intelligence report somewhere estimating that it would last no longer than 1 hour in a war with just Israel. Many of the planes are non-functional and the pilots have very few hours of flight time. Air Forces are very, very expensive and generally don't help regimes hold onto power. Having them is more or less stubborn pride, not really anything practical in a military sense.

Recently Syria got a whole bunch of coupons to go shopping with. They took a large cart up to Russia and started pulling things off the shelves. Aircraft and parts were not what they went for. They apparenlty skipped that asile completely. Instead they headed over to the Air Defense shelves and plucked off a bunch of SAMs of all flavors. They figure they can't defend the skies with expensive aircraft, but they can make them unfriendly with fairly inexpensive surface to air missiles.

We're not putting in any air for the Syrians. Red on Red is a "freebie" and we're not interested in putting in extra effort for them. And at this point in the development schedule, anything that isn't part of the core design isn't gonig to happen.

Steve

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The Iraqis' surviving airforce post Gulf War 1 was probably larger than what the Syrians have. The Iraqis thought the best tactic twas to bury their planes in the desert instead of using them. Funniest pictures I can recall from the early invasion days. Australian SAS, IIRC, found a whole bunch.

Yea, that's starting to ring a bell.

A quick search at Global Security Org reveals this info - Iraqi Air Force Equipment

and this story at ACIG.org

and this from FAS.org

Following Desert Storm, the Iraqi Air Force was estimated to include:

* 15 MiG-29 ground-attack aircraft

* 30 Mirage F1 ground-attack aircraft

* 50 MiG-23 multi-role fighters

* 20 Su-25 ground-attack aircraft

* 30 Su-20/-22 ground-attack aircraft

* 7 Tu-16 and B-6D bombers

* 10 Tu-22 supersonic bombers

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by Flanker15:

So I'm guessing this is set after the Air battle is decided and the Syrian air force didn't win.

Oh well I guess I can always set up a blue on blue scenario if I want equal forces.

When is the last time US troops have been attacked by an enemy air force? Korea? I believe that is a point of pride for the USAF, and I dont think that Syria would end that streak.

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by Flanker15:

Did some further reading and found they have a complement of 50 Mig-29s so they're a match for any NATO fighters.

Are Mig-29s really a match for F-22s? or F-35s?

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Moronic Max]

Even if each and every Syrian plane takes one American plane down with it, there still won't be any Syrian planes left when the invasion kicks off.

[rune]

David,

Two major lashes with a wet noodle. Vietnam had quite a few air to air battles, F4s vs MiG 17s. Oh, since you said attacked, there were Libyan Migs shot down by F14s [now retired *Sigh*]

Rune

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by rune:

David,

Two major lashes with a wet noodle. Vietnam had quite a few air to air battles, F4s vs MiG 17s. Oh, since you said attacked, there were Libyan Migs shot down by F14s [now retired *Sigh*]

Rune

I meant US ground forces.

Concerning air to air - some believe that a US plane was shot down by an iraqi fighter on the first day of GWI. Or is that a conspiracy theory? I have a book about the subject, but I only got through chapter 1 and lost interest - and that was a few years ago so details are foggy.

[ May 09, 2007, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: David Chapuis ]

[Sergei]

*insert your preferred joke about ground forces not needing enemy air force when there's friendly fire*

[David Chapuis]

I did use the word "enemy"

[Sergei]

Originally posted by David Chapuis:

I did use the word "enemy"

So did I.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

*insert your preferred joke about ground forces not needing enemy air force when there's friendly fire*

+1

"points of pride" are easily supplanted by other factors; USAF may be proud that it has prevented enemy aircraft from attacking US ground forces; the number of attacks they personally prosecuted on US and allied forces kind of mitigates a bit of that. Not to lay blame or imply it isn't inevitable, just saying, is all. A 20 year old mother's son is just as dead regardless of whether a Hind or an A-10 killed him.

[Sequoia]

I suppose we'll have air power attacking friendly forces in CMSF just as we did in the CMX1 games, though supposedly they should be less likely with better communications. Reality shows it's not full proof however.