CMSF: Suggestions and Questions

[Victoria Cross]

Hello,

Thank you BFC for continuing the Combat Mission trilogy going with the new CMX2 engine.

With respect to BFC, I would like to make the following suggestions and ask some questions:

Suggestions:

Game ladder:

Please create a Game ladder that is linked to the Battlefront homepage. The ladder should have a method for calculating the relative skill levels of players similiar to a chess Elo rating system. In addition, there should be a list of all players on the ladder with a contact email address to allow players to establish contact with each other. The software could be for the most part self-reliant, so BFC does not have to get involved with it. The administrators could be unpaid volunteers that BFC is familiar with, to keep costs down and not tie-down paid employees.

Wiki software:

Please create a wiki-board similiar to Bohemia Interactive this would allow players to create meaningful and easy to find entries, yet allow administrators to monitor and ensure accuracy. The administrators could be unpaid volunteers that BFC is familiar with, to keep costs down and not tie-down paid employees.

Questions:

Air Force:

(A)

Before the USA would invade Syria they would have Air supremacy, so how will you be able to allow Syrian air strikes in the game? The USA would move forward with significant air support such as A-10's, F-16's and Apache helicopters. In other words, will this not create an unbalanced game?

(

I read on the board the the game will not have the planes modelled in the game due to the time it would take: Will BFC advise if modelled planes will be available in the next USMC edition of the game?

Artillery:

I would submit the same for artillery platforms, the USA would simply target the platforms immediately after they shoot and destroy them, using Counter-battery radar as was done to the Katyusha rockets in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Again, the issue of creating an unbalanced game.

Armour:

There is no doubt that the USA would use air power to destroy most of the Syrian armour, the armour that was left is no match for the M1 Abrams. The M1 can target the opponents tank before the other tank can even see it ! Again, the issue of creating an unbalanced game or worse unrealistic SHOOT'EM UP.

Realism:

To be honest with you if the USA invaded Syria, the war would be over in less than a week and the Battlespace Shaping would render Syria virtually defenceless and either A) Unable to fight or Unwilling to fight. I would submit that a game of this nature to be balanced and fun to play could not be based on realism, but rather a semi-fantasy battle to make the game balanced.

[ February 22, 2007, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Victoria Cross ]

[aka_tom_w]

um

well

Battlespace Shaping is the military doctrine for the elimination of the enemy's capability to fight in a coherent manner before committing forces to decisive operations.

Well, I guess its back to the drawing board for Steve and the gang, maybe they should just start working on the WW II version of CMx2 now that we have that settled.

-tom w

[Nidan1]

I think someone is having a bit of fun at our expense.

The world must be a boring place for some folks.

[YankeeDog]

Ya, especially I love the link to Wikipedia's article on the M1. . . as if anyone around here might read the post and think, "M1 Abrams? What's that? Never heard of it. . . oh good, there's a link Wikipedia, now I can learn all about this new and interesting piece of military equipment!"

[MikeyD]

I think BFC said Syrian airstrike and helo attacks were a non-starter due to presumed absolute U.S. air superiority. Actually in CMx1 German air attacks become increasingly rare and expensive over time, replicating growing Allied control of the air. About this causing game imbalance, CMSF's trend towards 'assymetric warfare' is going to make it interesting to set up games that both sides will agree are 'even'. How many untrained Jihadists and unarmed collaborators would equal a full-up Stryker Brigade company in tournament play? :eek:

[ February 22, 2007, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

About this causing game imbalance, CMSF's trend towards 'assymetric warfare' is going to make it interesting to set up games that both sides will agree are 'even'. How many untrained Jihadists and unarmed collaborators would equal a full-up Stryker Brigade company in tournament play? :eek:

Now, THAT is the question we should be talking about it.

It might come down to a "bidding thing"

Sort of like a game show where one player says "I can name that tune in 5 notes", the other player says I can name that tune in 3 notes (note, he one upped the bid so as not to get stuck with a counter offer of only 2 notes ).....

so what is a fair fight?

NOW that is a HUGE question.

I would imagine there will be some for of bid and counter bid as to what each side/player considers they can win with.

"How many untrained (but fanatical) Jihadists, IED's, technicals and unarmed collaborators would equal a full-up Stryker Brigade company"??

dug into an urban environment with "home field advantage" IED's, RPG's, HMG technicals, and stealthy uncon "operatives" the real issue will be getting the numbers right for play balance, and I am guessing Rune and Steve are working on this very issue right now.

Great question though!

How's that for an answer, Victoria?

-tom w

[ February 22, 2007, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[rune]

And you would be correct. Also remember that after weeks of bombing Iraq, when ground forces moved in, there was still Iraqi tanks and artillery. The Iraqis even hid tanks in garages at homes to protect them. A good reading is Thunder Run.

Besides, Syrian Special Forces will give you a run for your money.

Rune

[Michael Dorosh]

Rune, seriously, that typo in your sig is driving me to drink. "Afrika Korps"...

[rune]

And for that reason alone I will not change it.

Rune

[Sixxkiller]

Michael, I thought it was the guy with the smokers cough that was driving you to drink. Maybe rune and the cougher are involved in a duel government conspiricy for you to purchase more alcohol. J.K. can you concur?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by rune:

And for that reason alone I will not change it.

Rune

Bravo!

I will defend to the death your freedom to make yourself look like an under-educated mouth-breathing illiterate unable to pay attention to detail or present himself in a professional manner via his sigline.

I salute you and the creed of people like you everywhere. Great accomplishments are made much sweeter when they are done solely for spite!

HORRIDO!

[rune]

Also remember folks, with different victory conditions, a fair fight has different meaning. Maybe as the Americans, I have to take and hold a building while as the Syrians, I have to destroy the American battalion HQ.

Rune

[rune]

Yes, but in the long run my liquor stock value will go up. Oh, and I think the great unwashed masses REALLY do not care if it is Korp or Korps, as indicated that in 2 years, this has been the first mention of it.

Rune

[birdstrike]

@ Victoria Cross:

The reason some of my fellow posters seem a bit agitated about your post is that the questions you raised have been discussed in this forum various times before. A search might turn up some more info.

To sum a few things up:

the US invasion is considered to be on a limited scale only no massive buildup over months like in Iraq, don't expect Abrams to show up in numbers every single mission, US firepower will be reduced by implementing penalties for collateral damage, already mentioned: different V-conditions for US and Syria, and finally the US will have to cope with all the issues of urban and assymetrical warfare.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by rune:

Yes, but in the long run my liquor stock value will go up. Oh, and I think the great unwashed masses REALLY do not care if it is Korp or Korps, as indicated that in 2 years, this has been the first mention of it.

Rune

Hey...you want unwashed...I'm your man. I don't know about mass, but I am carrying a few pounds leftover from Christmas. Surely to heaven that must count for somefink!? 111

[Sgt Joch]

There should still be room for some interesting conventional tactical matchups.

ATGM equipped Syrian infantry, especially special forces/commando units should be able to put a serious dent in attacking U.S. forces.

Syrian forces supposedly have 800 AT-10/14 and 200 MILANS which, in theory, should be one shot/kill on anything the US/NATO has, including the Abrams, in the ranges typically found in CMSF.

The big question mark will be the dud rate, since Syrian maintenance is supposedly very poor and the accuracy, since Syrian marksmanship supposedly leaves a lot to be desired.

[rune]

LOL, yes it counts for somefink. What, I don't know, but somefink I am sure.

Serious note, drop me an email, addy in my info.

Rune

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by rune:

LOL, yes it counts for somefink. What, I don't know, but somefink I am sure.

Serious note, drop me an email, addy in my info.

Rune

YGM...

[Ivan Drago]

Perhaps my brain is rotting, but I seem to recall that Katyusha rockets and arty shells were raining down in Israel all the way till the end of the brief conflict there, which likely indicates that counter-battery fire isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Technology is nifty, but it seems that angst-filled Arabic teenagers armed with Kalashnikovs and religious craziness won't be so easily dislodged from the region without mass murder, ala Chechnia.

[flamingknives]

Sgt. Joch, which Milan do the Syrians have? I had the impression that it was the older variety that was scarcely better than an RPG7 in terms of armour penetration.

Plus modern MBTs have really good protection over the frontal arc, especially against shaped charges.

[MikeyD]

About creating a Wiki board, it miight be instructive to travel over to the Drop Team board to see what they've got going Wiki-wise. Me, I'm getting too old to follow modern trends anymore. I'm no more Wiki-literate than cel phone proficient

[Sgt Joch]

Flamingknives,

I'm not sure which MILAN Syria has, although I remember Steve saying that most of them should be non-operational due to lack of maintenance.

Regarding the AT-14, from what I recall, they can penetrate up to 1.2 meters of armor.

From what I have read the Abrams front armor can in theory provide more armor protection, this site M1 main battle tank , says that, in theory, the front armor of an Abrams can provide the equivalent of up to 1.6 meters of protection.

Therefore, in theory, the AT-14 cannot penetrate the front armor of a M1 turret. However, I would think a AT-14 striking the front of an Abrams would, at least, knock out the main gun, probably immobilize the tank and quite possibly convince the crew to abandon ship, which would knockout the tank in CM terms. If it is hit anywhere else, the AT-14 should penetrate the armor and destroy the tank, although it will admit I am not a modern weapons expert.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Sgt. Joch, which Milan do the Syrians have? I had the impression that it was the older variety that was scarcely better than an RPG7 in terms of armour penetration.

Plus modern MBTs have really good protection over the frontal arc, especially against shaped charges.

Milan II

The missles they have should be a threat to any APC or tanks from the side or rear.

[C'Rogers]

Also remember folks, with different victory conditions, a fair fight has different meaning. Maybe as the Americans, I have to take and hold a building while as the Syrians, I have to destroy the American battalion HQ.

This is something that it seems is just going to have to be repeated over and over again until the game is out. I think there are a number of people who just won't buy that variable victory conditions will work until they actually play it.

Sort of like a game show where one player says "I can name that tune in 5 notes", the other player says I can name that tune in 3 notes (note, he one upped the bid so as not to get stuck with a counter offer of only 2 notes [big Grin] ).....

Or much like the original version of Axis and Allies if I remember correctly. It is an interesting idea though as something to be done by people. How many points as the Syrians (or how few as the Americans) do you need to accomplish a scenario. Interesting way to set up battles potentially.

[Schmoly War]

Victoria Cross, you mention amongst others the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Did you read up on this then:

Quote:

"Hezbollah also engaged in guerrilla warfare with the IDF, attacking from well-fortified positions. These attacks by small, well-armed units caused serious problems for the IDF, especially through the use hundreds of sophisticated Russian-made anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). Hezbollah destroyed 14 Israeli Merkava main battle tanks and damaged 50. Six tanks were destroyed by anti-tank mines. Hezbollah caused additional casualties using ATGMs to collapse buildings onto Israeli troops sheltering inside. [58]

After the initial Israeli response, Hezbollah declared an all-out military alert. Hezbollah was estimated to have 13,000 missiles at the beginning of the conflict.[83]. Israeli newspaper Haaretz described Hezbollah as a trained, skilled, well-organized, and highly motivated infantry that was equipped with the cream of modern weaponry from the arsenals of Syria, Iran, Russia, and China".

So..

An insignificant skirmish in operational terms, but a total media victory for the "underdogs" of Hizbollah.

I suggest you also read up on the two chechen wars in the 1990s and the Dagestan conflict to see how a relative small band of fighters can bloody the noses of imperialistic ambitions, win battles and most importantly the media war. You must be familiar with the battles for Grozny, surely.

Also, check out the craziest operation in modern times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar_raid

Im amazed some people still cannot see how playbalance can easily be implemented by a mission designer who sets the victory conditions for each side, and STILL be in tune with reality.

[ February 24, 2007, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Suspicious_Sedan ]