Request for new building types

[Paper Tiger]

Obviously NOT in 1.07 . I've just been 'google earthing' Syria and there are a lot of industrial type buildings that we just can't do presently; huge factory complexes, storage sheds tht look like huge row houses, etc . They are abundant in both urban and rural environments. Are there plans to expand the stock of building TYPES in the Marines module?

[Sequoia]

Hi

I'm putting out another line to see if it might reel in a bone now on this. Also any plans for more flavor objects?

[LongLeftFlank]

Steve has said recently that there will be no new terrain for the Marines module, but there will definitely be new types of terrain, buildings and fortifications for Normandy and that they hope to make at least some of these back-compatible to the CMSF (Modern Era) gameset (good news for Fulda Gap / Bosnia devotees).

I and others have argued repeatedly that for CMSF MOUT (which I understand to be more prominent in the Marines module storyline than in CMSF), we should either have some way to strongpoint or sandbag specific building levels (as real forces could/would quickly do), or at least have "heavy" and "light" structures like in CMx1).

Steve can certainly speak for himself, but my understanding of his POV is that Mideast vets or combat engineers or other knowledgeable parties have advised him that a single type of moderately heavy building is sufficient to portray both traditional mud-brick and modern poured concrete structures whose cover properties are said to be broadly similar. As a guy who both worked in the building field and has spent time in the third world, I disagree, but there you have it.

Steve hasn't said much about flavour objects or decals AFAIK, except to note that having too many of them on a map really hit system performance. So I don't sense a great eagerness on his part to add such things, even though IMNSHO they would add a great deal of realistic clutter and variety to the streetscapes, which isn't just eye candy but tactically critical.

For example, I'm currently trying to build an authentic souk[/] (marketplace), with its maze of narrow alleys, awnings, open-front shops and cluttered courtyards, but right now all I've got to work with are crates, sacks and bus shelters.

Terrain is the "third player" in this game, and I feel that there's a huge amount of rich untapped potential that wouldn't seem all that hard to unleash, or enable the eager modding community to build out.

As it is, I hate to say it but CMSF is starting to get a bit stale for me... not sure that just swapping Marine (or Tommy) for GI TOE plus some T90s is going to change that for me. But I live in hope.

[Combatintman]

I agree - we need more buildings although - as has been stated there will be no changes to terrain in the USMC module.

I am a huge fan of this game but I do feel limited by the terrain objects available - there are so many scenarios that could be created in an Iraq or Afghanistan context (mostly the former) which aren't possible right now. I admit that the game scenario is Syria but roaming around that on Google Earth shows quite clearly that the inability to have:

Bridges

Cloverleafs

Water Features

Industrial Facilities

Airfield Objects

Makes things a tad difficult - particularly when you consider that an ATM/cahspoint machine is one of the flavour objects. Who uses those? (In CMSF I mean!).

[rune]

Actually you can, connect buildings together and remove the walls between the buildings. I have made huge warehouses and odd size buildings. During testing the guys got sick of an attack on a factory complex I had made.

Rune

[Sivodsi]

Have you guys checked out the 'King Copper mines' scenario? Most impressive factory there. I've no idea what a real copper refinery looks like, but this is a good enough representation for me.

Copper mine refinery grogs feel free to disagree.

[Combatintman]

Rune,

Yes I'm aware of the fact that you can join buildings together and you can simulate warehouses or suchlike by fiddling with the door/window arrangement in 3D mode but we still need more building types and being able to have a traditional v-shaped roof would help as well (I know they are less common in the middle east - but are still prevalent enough).

Think about things in the modern landscape which would be great to have over and above the things I mentioned earlier:

Sewage works

Oil storage tanks

Oil refinery structures

Oil pipelines

Cooling towers

Railway tracks

Electricity Pylons

Water towers - essential in the Middle East - (have a look at Fallujah on Google Earth).

[LongLeftFlank]

Originally posted by Combatintman:

Rune,

being able to have a traditional v-shaped roof would help as well (I know they are less common in the middle east - but are still prevalent enough).

Think about things in the modern landscape which would be great to have over and above the things I mentioned earlier:

Sewage works

Oil storage tanks

Oil refinery structures

Oil pipelines

Cooling towers

Railway tracks

Electricity Pylons

Water towers - essential in the Middle East - (have a look at Fallujah on Google Earth).

Large Stalingrad/Bethlehem style factory complexes performing complex integrated manufacturing aren't unknown in the Mideast, but most of the domestic "industrial sites" are smaller, basically an acre or two of dirt enclosed by a wall or fence and located along a commercial road for logistical/utility convenience. Typically, they provide labour-intensive piecework fabrication of solid components -- metalwork or ceramics/glassware -- for export. These sites are pretty ubiquitous in populated areas and are often surrounded by residential blocks (workers commute by foot/bike/scooter).

You might have a few small fully enclosed office structures or prefab trailers with aircon, but most of the workshops and warehouses on site are basically flat or slightly sloped tin/fiberglass/ tile roofed sheds on posts, about 1.5-2 x the height of a standard CMSF building. The building walls are kind of optional weather screens and serve no structural function and would either be light cinderblock without windows or thin metal. There's usually space between wall and roof to allow natural ventilation and light. Construction and operating costs are kept to a bare minimum.

You wouldn't normally see soldiers going up on the roofs of these things to fight. There's no cover there at all and only an access ladder (if that). If I was a sniper or spotter looking for height, I'd prefer to climb the site's water tank (a cement cistern on stilts), which I could hide behind.

From a tactical viewpoint, the structures themselves make pretty weak cover, particularly from HE. Against bullets, better cover would be furnished by any solid machinery or cement structures (e.g. kilns or ovens), or by piles of solid inventory and materials.

[ May 01, 2008, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: LongLeftFlank ]

[LongLeftFlank]

In rural areas, you'd also see food storage and processing facilities constructed along similar lines to those described above, but even flimsier and cheaper.

[Peter Cairns]

Sewage works

Oil storage tanks

Cooling towers

Most of these could be covered by a generic circular building of sorts. I think the modular approach would be better than a list of different types.

A one story high one with no roof could be a sewage farm or irrigation pond.

Make it three or four stories high with roof but no entry and you get a fuel storage tank.

Have the ability to take out wall sections and remove them from the lower levels along with floors and you get a water tower.

It would be possible to give them either concrete or metal skins in with heavy or light cover properties.

Peter.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I would really, really like some circular buildings too. I'm making a scenario with a water tower in it and I just kind of have to ask the player to "believe it's a water tower."

-FMB

[Sequoia]

IIRC circular buildings can cause a performance hit. Is that right?

[MikeyD]

New building 'skins' can be added to the game right now. The buildings are now numbered 1, 2, 3 etc. If you create a new building skin you'd be able to tag on the next number in the sequence then select that building type for your maps.

There's a couple big caviats though. Building skins are more complex than they look. You'd have to include roof and balconies and interior skins. And buildings aren't random. You'd have to select that specific skin in the map editor to get it into the game. God knows what would happen if you build a map with 'Building Exterior-8' texture used and someone else open the scenario without 'Building Exterior-8' loaded. :eek:

But still, more building skins can be added.

[LongLeftFlank]

Originally posted by Sequoia:

IIRC circular buildings can cause a performance hit. Is that right?

If so, I'd settle for octagonal, if that would help.

Small circular (or octagonal) structures could also be used for minarets. Building square ones out of tall small buildings looks kind of lame IMHO. Plus most minarets can only support a couple of spotters/snipers, not an entire squad.

[Battlefront.com]

We will be including a wider variety of building types for the WW2 game and, at some point, Modern as well.

Building shapes are more a problem for things like LOS, LOF, pathfinding, spotting, etc, rather than just a polygonal issue. Though it is true that the more sides a building has the harder the game has to work to show it.

Steve