JohnCalvin Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 At real time, things happen so quickly that it seems like a click-fest. I understand that things happen a lot faster now and at longer distances, but I believe your ole wego helps slow things down a bit. And, where can we get some tutorials or something on tactics for this type of warfare? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalbrew Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Did you play the tutorial campaign already built in the game? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Major_Jerkov Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by JohnCalvin: At real time, things happen so quickly that it seems like a click-fest. I understand that things happen a lot faster now and at longer distances, but I believe your ole wego helps slow things down a bit. Ive yet to try RT. Ive simply been studying replays, and trying to figure out how things work. This game has so much potential. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCalvin Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 It does have a lot of potential. I played a great game with my son tonight. Hotseat. Someone in another thread mentioned they miss all the individual unit info in CMBB. Seems a lot of data still undercover. Don't take this the wrong way BF but this does make me long for your CMx2 engine on WW2 battlefields. I have to learn a lot about this type of warfare, so slow is better for me now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InvaderCanuck Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 The problem with RT is that it makes coordinating anything beyond say a platoon almost impossible, especially if they are not all in one location. I mean, you can jump around and issue orders and what not, but you cannot be thoughtful. Everything is going to be rushed in larger scenarios and it kind of makes me sad. Also, to rebutte anyone suggesting I "l2p" RTS games, I was a top AOE and AOE2 ladder player at one point. The point is, this isn't supposed to be just another RTS ;p 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exel Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 I love how the tank battles especially play out. Things happen a lot faster than they did in the WW2 setting, at longer ranges, and a lot more violently. Just like they should. And what's best, utilizing real-world tactics WORKS! This is the most realistic tank combat simulation I've seen since Steel Beasts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by Exel: I love how the tank battles especially play out. Things happen a lot faster than they did in the WW2 setting, at longer ranges, and a lot more violently. Just like they should. And what's best, utilizing real-world tactics WORKS! This is the most realistic tank combat simulation I've seen since Steel Beasts. And they will only get better. There is still a lot of goodies we got planned to implement in the future! Madmatt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Chapuis Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by InvaderCanuck: Also, to rebutte anyone suggesting I "l2p" RTS games, I was a top AOE and AOE2 ladder player at one point. The point is, this isn't supposed to be just another RTS ;p [/QB]Thats impressive. I tried and tried to be good at that game, but I just wasnt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by JohnCalvin: It does have a lot of potential. I played a great game with my son tonight. Hotseat. Someone in another thread mentioned they miss all the individual unit info in CMBB. Seems a lot of data still undercover. Don't take this the wrong way BF but this does make me long for your CMx2 engine on WW2 battlefields. I have to learn a lot about this type of warfare, so slow is better for me now. Hi John I've found playing larger scenarios RT you just have to move slower. I use one unit as my "spearhead" others I move into overwatch. Using this approach stuff moves a bit slower. I find that if playing in RT I have to slooooow down my attack and spend more time co-ordinating. As much as I like WEGO I must admit when Beta testing I played 95% of stuff in RT. Each to their own eh? Cheers fur noo George 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzen Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 You guys know you can pause the game with ESC and issue orders, right? Just like WeGo, but better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 No problem guys! We included both modes of play because we want to make everybody happy. For me, I don't think I've played a single game in WeGo. I let the testers do that. Why? Well, here is the honest truth... As I've told you guys many times before, the game engine was built to be realtime first and foremost. That's because you can make a realtime game turn based, but can not make a turn based game realtime (that's just the way code goes). So for the first year I was playing the game it was RealTime only since WeGo hadn't been coded. By the time WeGo was coded I couldn't bare to play it any more. Having said that, I'm not soured on WeGo as a concept or even as a play option for myself. I just don't think it will ever be more than an occasional thing for me from now on. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Well, it's still the only option for those of us whose preferred method of play is PBEM. Thus, WEGO must never die. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 I try not to use Pause becuse I feel it detatches me from the flow of events. One thing that is HUGELY different about CM:SF in general, but specifically to RealTime play, is the sense of time. All of you that have hung out here over the years know that we've had huge discussions about the time compression realism problem brought on by Borg Spotting and too much control. Well, CM:SF takes care of Borg Spotting and RealTime takes care of too much control. Therefore, you lose (for the most part) the time compression problem in theory. BUT! You have to mentally let go of it or you'll not be happy with RealTime. You have to be at peace with watching things happen without micromanaging them. You have to be OK with checking in on a unit and finding that it is down 2 men and you don't know why. You also have to be VERY content for your own offensive plans to take a lot longer to develop than they would in CMx1. It's a big leap, trust me I know, but if you make it I think you'll find it VERY hard to go back to WeGo. The best way I can describe it is I feel clausterphobic when I play WeGo now. I'm not sure if that conveys the right emoition, but it's the best I can come up with. Still, having said that it is true that for now there is a limit on how many dudes you can control at one time. This depends largely on the map size, your missions, the composition of your forces, and what kind of opposition you face. Generally I find a company is about max to deal with at any one time. A focused mission, map, and timely reinforcements can push that up to about two companies. But more than that, not practical. At least not without some major UI features. That's for the future Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exel Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: It's a big leap, trust me I know, but if you make it I think you'll find it VERY hard to go back to WeGo.Considering WeGo is not an option for TCP/IP play, I think you are right in that. It's not just very hard, it's impossible. Still, having said that it is true that for now there is a limit on how many dudes you can control at one time. -- A focused mission, map, and timely reinforcements can push that up to about two companies. But more than that, not practical. At least not without some major UI features. That's for the future Steve To handle more troops effectively in real time you need a lot more from the TacAI. It has to be able to autonomously control individual units to the point where you only give movement orders to platoons or sections, and detailed commands to individual units only on special occasions (AT Squad: Destroy That Bunker). As long as you have to micromanage every individual unit to their own firing positions and set their waypoints by hand, RealTime is pretty much out of the question for any greater number of troops. For that you need WeGo. If you want to omit WeGo or pausing, you need a vastly improved TacAI, much slower game pace (like in Close Combat), or both. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronn Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 It's simple: I'm a wargamer (hope ist *g*). I'm a wargamer because I like to think and plan. The only way to think and plan in a game like this is a system like WEGO. If I would like to play realtime, there are many other games out there ... I play CM since CM1. If CMSF realy was planed as a realtime game, then that was it for me ... I think, time will tell ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 WoW, I just played a RT scenario (Trident Valley I think, then one where you have to take 3 towns) and I must say that I am very displeased. The fight took place in three different sectors (meaning that I had to frantically jump back and forth with a camera control that is awful) but I felt that I had no time to give proper orders (a very hard to use UI did not help) and in the end I just selected the whole platoon and told them to move forward. Without any tactic and hardly any input from my part I won the game with 3 wounded and no IFVs destroyed... I do hope that the game will improve and I have high hopes on Battlefront but right now I feel cheated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlg85 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Oh guys, please stop with the "Did you read the manual" and "You're just not used to it" comments in regards to real time. Many wargamers by nature love the mental challenge of sitting and planning out a great strategy, regardless of whether this is slower, you cant do it in real time. Some of us simply don't want to play real time, all this argument about not being used to it sounds just like you hear from RTS kiddies about the difficulty of regular RTS games. "Oh you just suck, you cant do it fast enough" I guess it comes down to a disagreement over what Combat Mission meant as a game, for those like me, it was a great graphical representation in a WEGO format of thinking tactical games that you had to have a board to play. Obviously that isn't the design philosphy behind future "Combat Missions" which is more of a highly detailed rts. [ July 28, 2007, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: rlg85 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Play WeGo then? Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kineas Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Wow, it's amazing to see how we, wego bigots started to multiply these days. To be fair, wego playing (wargaming - "battle chess") is a different genre than the realtime simulation. No point in searching it in the realtime mode. Each has its pros and cons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlg85 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by Moon: Play WeGo then? Martin As soon as you let me via TCP/IP I will 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tc237 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 BFC, one thing that may help with C2 in realtime is some type of "chain of command". A way to give tasks to entire platoons. If that is too ambitious, at least a way to cycle through Platoons or Companies. Maybe I'm thinking of MMG's use of the arrow keys to move around the chain of command to find units all over the battlefield. I know the - or + keys cycles through units, but going through every team or squad in a large realtime battle is tedious. Maybe Shift - or + cycles Platoon HQ's and Alt - or + cycles CO HQ's? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 If you want to push people to consider RT, I think some tools are needed. For example: Quick way to jump to units (like a list) Basic commands to alleviate micromanegement (Hull Down, Shoot & Scoot, etc) Event-based pauses ( High Value unit taking fire, arty strike, objective lost, etc) Better command management (like right clicking the unit for commands) This is what makes it a clickfest. I had the same complaint about ToW. It was a good RT concept but forced the player to be everywhere at once to make sure the really dumb units didn't do REALLY dumb things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 rlg85, oh ok... for a second I was under the impression when reading some posts here as if there was no WeGo option at all in the game. It's more clear now. Ouch, I think I bit my tongue just now tc237, try some of the following: - doubleclick on a unit when selecting it - click on some of the things in the interface such as: - the formations below the unit portrait - the tab views to the left of the Command panel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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