BFC: please do not dumb down "Elite" level

[Sgt Joch]

Catching up on the huge volume of posts, I read BFC is planning to dumb down the "Elite" level by adding the possibility to issue orders while the game is paused. I personally think this would be a bad idea and a step backwards in the quest for a realistic simulation of warfare.

One of my biggest criticisms of CMx1 was the unrealistic God like command and control the player had. Since you had an unlimited amount of time to plan a 60 second move, each unit would be micromanaged and coordinated to a degree which would be impossible in real life.

I have been playing the game in "Elite" ironman mode without pausing and it does a decent job of simulating battlefield confusion where you have to make snap judgments, not every decision is perfect and mistakes happen.

Adding the ability to issue orders while the game is paused would actually be worse than the CMx1 system since players could pause the game every 5 seconds (and I know some who would)and micromanage the game to an even greater degre than in CMx1.

So I am opposed to this plan to dumb down the current "Elite" level to make the game easier.

My suggestion would be as follows:

1-keep the current "Elite" level as is for diehard realism nuts like myself;and

2-introduce a new "Crack" or "veteran plus" level which would have the eilte FOV and the ability to issue orders while the game is paused, for the players that want a less stressful gaming experience.

The discussion is now open...

[thewood]

It has already been discussed in multiple threads.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

Catching up on the huge volume of posts, I read BFC is planning to dumb down the "Elite" level by adding the possibility to issue orders while the game is paused.

Excellent! As it is, I rarely use this method, anyway, but when I feel I have to use it, I want it to be there even in Elite mode.

In your case: just do not pause. Problem solved.

By the way, I do not agree with you that RT is any more or less realistic than WeGo. It is just as unrealistic that I advance only on one front because I focus my attention there and leave the other front static. It is also not realistic that, simply because you double the number of units in a scenario, the degree of 'confusion' will also double. Does not correspond to real life.

Just my thoughts, though, nothing I would go into a pseudo-religious argument over. For me, RT is a matter of economy. Try to play a 90 min. scenario turn-based *shudder*.

Best regards,

Thomm

[SmithyG]

Do you just not want people who pause to be able to say they play using elite mode? I cant think of another reason considering it wont effect MP. No one's going to force you to pause and issue orders.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by thewood:

It has already been discussed in multiple threads.

where?

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

Catching up on the huge volume of posts, I read BFC is planning to dumb down the "Elite" level by adding the possibility to issue orders while the game is paused.

Excellent! As it is, I rarely use this method, anyway, but when I feel I have to use it, I want it to be there even in Elite mode.

In your case: just do not pause. Problem solved.

By the way, I do not agree with you that RT is any more or less realistic than WeGo. It is just as unrealistic that I advance only on one front because I focus my attention there and leave the other front static. It is also not realistic that, simply because you double the number of units in a scenario, the degree of 'confusion' will also double. Does not correspond to real life.

Just my thoughts, though, nothing I would go into a pseudo-religious argument over. For me, RT is a matter of economy. Try to play a 90 min. scenario turn-based *shudder*.

Best regards,

Thomm </font>

[thewood]

Come on...every time I ask something, people tell me to use the search function. I wanted my chance.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by SmithyG:

Do you just not want people who pause to be able to say they play using elite mode? I cant think of another reason considering it wont effect MP. No one's going to force you to pause and issue orders.

I think the current "Elite" level could have a lot of potential over the life of the new game engine, if players give it a chance. I just don't think scrapping it in the first week is a good idea.

[Speedy]

I would prefer that the elite level remains as it is as well. I agree with Sgt. Joch that if some people have to use the pause to play a new difficulty level should be added or play veteran if you can issue orders paused in that.

[Becket]

Originally posted by Speedy:

I would prefer that the elite level remains as it is as well. I agree with Sgt. Joch that if some people have to use the pause to play a new difficulty level should be added or play veteran if you can issue orders paused in that.

I like the idea of a new level - veteran plus - that is Elite without the pause restriction.

Saying "play veteran" is about as helpful as saying "don't pause." I want all the realism factors of Elite, but I want the pause.

[ARRPEEGEE]

I don't think the inability to pause for orders makes it more difficult, or realistic-It just makes it tedious-when the battle really starts to get thick, I tend to get low framerates, and it takes for-e-v-e-r to get to your recently arrives reinforcements,etc..you spend more time panning, rotating and clicking than you do masterminding the battle.

Sure, if the game could run 60fps in a battalion sized battle, I probably wouldn't mind as much.

As for the realism, naah. Overtasking makes play more unrealistic, not the opposite. Performing a co-ordinated attack or maneuver with anything larger than a overstrength platoon is pretty difficult, so, co-ordination is usually the first thing to go-sad, as it's pretty much the foundation for tactical maneuver-so much for more realism.

I suppose the best policy is-if you don't like orders pause, don't use it-remove pausable orders from the difficulty setting entirely, and make it a seperate option-why punish players who want to play at veteran without pauseable orders, eh? same goes for elite. Some really want to play elite with pause. Should be an option...Or, make the game run at 60fps in a company sized firefight.

And besides, you can already give artillery targeting orders while paused in v1.01, so....elite is already totally 'unrealistic' anyways!..Ok, sarcasm aside,

call it what you want, just add the option.

[ August 03, 2007, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: ARRPEEGEE ]

[sage2]

Originally posted by Speedy:

I would prefer that the elite level remains as it is as well. I agree with Sgt. Joch that if some people have to use the pause to play a new difficulty level should be added or play veteran if you can issue orders paused in that.

Sooo... don't use the feature.

[Sgt Joch]

My main point here is that there seems to be a rush to scrap the current "Elite" level before players have had a chance to decide whether they like it or not.

After six days of playing with it, I like the way it works right now and there should be a discussion on whether to modify or not before it is gone forever.

If some players want the ability to issue orders while paused, the correct method would be to modify the "veteran" level or to create a new intermediate level "Elite FOV + pause" and not scrapping the existing "Elite" level.

If they are planning to recode this feature in any event, would it be really harder to give players an additional choice instead of removing one?

[ August 03, 2007, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Sgt.Joch ]

[Kieme(ITA)]

What about a single secondary option that allows players to enable or disable the possibility to issue orders while paused? This way all parts will be happy..

[Stirling]

No pause in Elite is an arcade twitchy type idea that doesn't belong in a wargame, RT or otherwise. The difficulty should be fog of war related, not hand-eye coordination dependent.

[Pandur]

well, i dont care about "dumbing" down elite with pause, that would help to ease the big downsides of RT.

but since i dont play Rt anyways i dont care

i would more like to see it spiced up. full spotts are throwen around like candys, even the worst vehciles spot through earth and can Xray houses(not that bad, but you know ).

thats not worth a alite, mybe reintroduce "realistic"!? above elite!

[Kieme(ITA)]

Well, maybe such an option wouldn't be "realistic", but I don't think it should be trashed so easily. I can tell you I like the way the game is now about this aspect.. but if some poeple would like that as an option I see no reason it shouldn't be applied, it's not so difficult it seems.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Stirling:

No pause in Elite is an arcade twitchy type idea that doesn't belong in a wargame, RT or otherwise. The difficulty should be fog of war related, not hand-eye coordination dependent.

That is a overly harsh statement. I would argue that having a pause in Elite is actually more arcadish since no commander in battle has the ability to freeze time, issue orders, and restart time.

At my age, I am actually quite a slow player, but in Elite, WEGO and RL, the key to success is the same: sound pre-battle planning & sound battle tactics.

Do battles ever spin out of control? sure, but is'nt that what happens in real life?

Players should really give this a chance before they dismiss it out of hand.

[Pandur]

Do battles ever spin out of control? sure, but is'nt that what happens in real life?

sure, but not in a way RT play gives.

they go out of control becouse of "enemy action and lack of reaction to it" wich supports tthe RT mode, but however the godlike commander doesnt have to squezze all his stuff through the contols and comand menue. thats why all the little other commanders and HQ´s are good for.

sure the control and command menue may also be faster when applied against a force in RL. means a single player controlls his force in CM style in RL. abstract but imagine...

thats also somehow logic, but when both players have to do it though a menue than its down to faster clicking and faster issuing orders to react through the "unrealistic" UI.

expect both players have much expirience in RT play, and are fully used to the controls and menues. than its fair.

WEGO doesnt need all that to be equal, fact.

neiter of them are perfectly realistic but WEGO is better suited for compitative play. much more with a reasonable force in that game...for what can i buy battalion anyways!?

[ August 03, 2007, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[ARRPEEGEE]

but however the godlike commander doesnt have to squezze all his stuff through the contols and comand menue. thats why all the little other commanders and HQ´s are good for.

This is why I personally don't accept the notion that it's more "realistic"-Unless you're attempting to simulate a WW2 Imperial Japanese style of C2. It assumes that the company commander has to personally assign things as basic as facing to each and every soldier under command, and that no smaller unit has any eyeballs, ears or initiative.(and a short attention span, to boot)

I mean, you could argue that using any other camera than '1' with the camera not locked on a unit is unrealistic, but..it's not. And neither is pausing.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by ARRPEEGEE:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />but however the godlike commander doesnt have to squezze all his stuff through the contols and comand menue. thats why all the little other commanders and HQ´s are good for.

This is why I personally don't accept the notion that it's more "realistic"-Unless you're attempting to simulate a WW2 Imperial Japanese style of C2. It assumes that the company commander has to personally assign things as basic as facing to each and every soldier under command, and that no smaller unit has any eyeballs, ears or initiative.(and a short attention span, to boot)

I mean, you could argue that using any other camera than '1' with the camera not locked on a unit is unrealistic, but..it's not. And neither is pausing. </font>

[Darren J Pierson]

Am I the only one that actually has to deal with things like telephone calls, people at the door, etc. You know, those real life things that pop up and are the ultimate in realism?

[Philistine]

I have no problems if players want an additional "Elite+Pause" setting, but the players who like the current Elite RT level should not be penalised.

How would players who like the current Elite-RT level be penalized by the addition of a pause option?

--Philistine

[Darren J Pierson]

Originally posted by Philistine:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have no problems if players want an additional "Elite+Pause" setting, but the players who like the current Elite RT level should not be penalised.

How would players who like the current Elite-RT level be penalized by the addition of a pause option?

--Philistine </font>

[KNac]

As I udnerstood in the firsts posts the issue is being able to give commands while paused, not pausing itself.

Pausing at elite is ok, as, yes, we have to deal with things like phones and blahblah. But being able to give orders while paused rests attractive to elite mode.

But in any case, no one obligues you to give orders, and if you play multi you can agree with your opponent to not pause/give orders while paused. A Veteran+ mode would make things easier though and solve any "cheating".