Michael Dorosh Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Originally posted by abneo3sierra: ...for the movie actually stresses my point that acceptable history is taught by the victors. ... I meant no disrespect to Poland, simply was stating a fact that technically they were on the victorious side in the end. Thanks But do you really think that Germany had no hand in shaping postwar opinion or reflection on the conduct of the war? The struggle to get anyone to think that the Wehrmacht was complicit in war crimes is staggering on its own, even putting aside the astonishing level of interest displayed in the Waffen SS by hobbyists of all stripes. And the post-war Allied apologists who blamed German superiority instead of their own shortcomings for their military failures. German professional soldiers - the ones that lived - were probably all too happy to sit back and agree with them, ensuring themselves of a fine place in posterity without having to lift a finger. I don't agree with your assertion - for a single second - that the "victors" wrote the history of the Second World War; there are more than enough viewpoints seeing equal coverage, and in fact, it is the viewpoints of the losers that seem to get attention out of all due proportion. That the Russians were operationally competent by 1944 is ignored in favour of dwelling on their defeats; that Canada did its part in Northwest Europe is ignored in favour of pissing and moaning about Dieppe and Verrierres Ridge. US fighting abilities in Brittany or the Rhineland are left in the shadow of Huertgen or the first days of the Bulge. If the victors are writing the histories, they sure are picking some funny stories to tell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I apologize for being part of the tide that has knocked this thread off topic. M Dorosh..yes, I see your point, and of course there are all viewpoints told..nevertheless, the fact that in Germany, the game has to have different marks, by itself is proof of my point. I will not push this topic further. I do respect your opinion, and even agree, though it probably seems I do not, with probably 80% of it. My original post was that horses might be historically correct, but should not be implemented. I am sure that in your opinion, as not even being historically correct, you agree with me there as well Please allow me to shove this topic back on course, and again, my apologies. One last point..for what its worth, of course as part of the Screaming Eagles, I agree with your comment about the US troops at the Bulge. And as for Canadian troops, Dieppe I have never heard held against them, usually it has been an example of bravery, and I have heard some blame assigned to Churchill, fairly or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Originally posted by abneo3sierra: And as for Canadian troops, Dieppe I have never heard held against them, usually it has been an example of bravery, and I have heard some blame assigned to Churchill, fairly or not. My point is that if I said "Scheldt" or "Adolf Hitler Line" to you, you would have no idea what I was talking about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by abneo3sierra: And as for Canadian troops, Dieppe I have never heard held against them, usually it has been an example of bravery, and I have heard some blame assigned to Churchill, fairly or not. My point is that if I said "Scheldt" or "Adolf Hitler Line" to you, you would have no idea what I was talking about. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by abneo3sierra: My great grandfather was an officer in the SS and passed down stories about the Polish cavalry charging panzer units...It would probably be historically accurate, No, it wouldn't. It never happened. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Originally posted by Hoolaman: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by abneo3sierra: My great grandfather was an officer in the SS and passed down stories about the Polish cavalry charging panzer units...It would probably be historically accurate, No, it wouldn't. It never happened. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean F. Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Elmar..in a way, your point is correct. But technically Poland was on the victorious side, and actually inherited a sizable chunk of territory that was German before the war. Per capita, Poland lost more of its population killed than any other country. The losses were devastating, made all the more sad, if that is possible, by the fact many of those losses were cold blooded murder - mass shootings (by both the Russians and the Germans) and concentration camps in the main. The total according to Wikipedia was 16% of the 1939 population. One in six people alive in Poland in 1939 were dead six years later.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 MD, if I recall correctly, don't your ASL friends depict Polish Cavalry charging German Armored cars on the cover of an ASL Anuual? By the way, I too doubt it ever happened. Steve said we won't see horses ever now in WWII, but his previous line was there's a small chance if they do a pre-20th century game before East Front which makes sense. So it's years down the road in any case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Originally posted by Sequoia: MD, if I recall correctly, don't your ASL friends depict Polish Cavalry charging German Armored cars on the cover of an ASL Anuual? By the way, I too doubt it ever happened. Steve said we won't see horses ever now in WWII, but his previous line was there's a small chance if they do a pre-20th century game before East Front which makes sense. So it's years down the road in any case. Just curious, and off topic somewhat, but BFC has a napoleonic era game coming soon, is that what he was referring to, or is that they may do another pre-20th century game? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I assume you mean HistWar: Les Grognards? That's a different development team using a different engine so that doesn't count. The original long term plan was that only two of the first 5 games would be WWII. CMSF is obviously one that isn't, but the second one will be France summer '44 which won't need horses. No word on what game three will be, but any game pre-twentieth century would require horses. The thought is if they do the programming for horses for this possible pre-twentieth century game it wouldn't be hard to add horses to a later WWII game. As you can see the whole thing is highly speculative as it's probable BFC hasn't yet decided on the subject for game three. Last word is no horses in WWII, ever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Originally posted by Sequoia: MD, if I recall correctly, don't your ASL friends depict Polish Cavalry charging German Armored cars on the cover of an ASL Anuual? Don't make a reality argument with me, Suzy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 We see ourselves being in the WW2 area for a while. Probably a long while. Which is why nobody should expect to see horses, Polish or otherwise , within a timeframe that makes it relevant to talk about them. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Originally posted by Sequoia: MD, if I recall correctly, don't your ASL friends depict Polish Cavalry charging German Armored cars on the cover of an ASL Anuual? By the way, I too doubt it ever happened. My point above was that the swords-waving myth and the SS grandpa stories are actually based on a real event. So "it" did happen, only the retelling of the story took a LOT of poetic license. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Anyway, if Bren Carriers can do this, in game, I'll be happy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 Manner Gegen Panzer has it all: flares, horses, softskins, improvised AT weapons, grenade dischargers, Leuchspistole, etc. Usually, only this last sequence is shown on YouTube. Tail end of Part 2 indicates Red flare for infantry, Purple for armor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvY7ugiU48A&feature=related Could definitely use the sorts of capabilities in this series: motorized assault boats, small rubber boats, tactical ferries, pontoon bridging, Bailey type bridging, obstacle breaching, wire breaching, pole charges, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBclz8otQs&feature=related Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I liked this one Man against Tank - German educational film part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-g5sg4IrwY&feature=related 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 M1A1TankCommander, Goes without saying. Ditto for entire series. It's just that I'd never seen either the second or the third one in their entirety. Was blown away the portions I did see at the time. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I grew up watching similar films from the Soviet side. It was definatly interesting to see it from the enemy's side. The production value is a lot better 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 M1A1TankCommander, Bet you wished it was as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFM8zpZ0AA From a movie? called Shtrafbat about a penal battalion. Bet this looks familiar. For me, it's like seeing a mythical creature, having read about it and seen one still. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWDEmJ74RI&feature=related OTOH, this would would let me finally try out that Panzerblitz variant! Back to the real. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kbRdaNJ4mk Still want the big toys here for streetfighting! For when we move East! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JovjryCrPhk A real Russian Battle of Berlin documentary with incredible footage (links here) http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=011976#000000 Regards, John Kettler [ March 25, 2008, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I do own a large collection of Russian war movies, including TV series "Shtrafbat" But its pretty new, came out a few years ago. I was talking about watching Soviet black and white war movies made in 1940's and 50's when I was growing up. I recently purchased a lot of them Here is a huge movie series (5 movies) from late 1960-1970 called Osvobozhdenie Osvobozhdenie Here is another good Russian war movie "Oni srazhalis za rodinu" (1975) Both of these are tanker's wet dream. They used real Army battalions to film some scenes [ March 25, 2008, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenowl Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Could we see horse limbered artillery in the early days of WW2. I don't expect charging or anything silly like that, but I was reading Soldat and he mentioned being part of horse limbered artillery. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 M1A1TankCommander, Impressive! Both appear to be about Kursk, both feature T-34/85s with T-55 star pattern roadwheels, and am I ever impressed with that tank's mobility! Since I don't read Russian and don't know the films you mentioned, your YouTube delve did much better than mine. Must explore further! would love to see the war films from the 1940s and 1950s! As for film length, I've seen the 8 hour "War and Peace," filmed with 100,000 Red Army soldiers and costing $100 million in early 1960s money to film. It once held the Guinness World Record as the most expensive movie ever made. This one's got some terrific artillery stuff in it, though why they're not pounding the German assault I don't know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy8mxh0P63M&feature=related Omenowl, I'm with you. 80% of the German tactical transport was horsedrawn, and the Russians used a million horses during the GPW. Did you notice the motorcycles with sidecars in the first of the Russian Kursk films? Regards, John Kettler [ March 25, 2008, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 John Many films can be found here,some translated, some with subtitled http://www.russiandvd.com/store/dvd.asp?genreid=29&genresubid=100 http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=47435&genreid=29&genresubid=100 The one movie I mentioned, Osvobozhdenie, is actually 5 movies, covering the Kursk battle, all the way to the final Berlin assault. You can download it here, for example, for just few bucks per movie http://www.memocast.com/mediadetails.aspx?id=88551 Here are some photos from the movie posted in a forum http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15185 http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=102387&highlight=russian+movies [ March 25, 2008, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Cocktail Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander: I do own a large collection of Russian war movies, including TV series "Shtrafbat" But its pretty new, came out a few years ago. Shtrafbat was quite good, I saw it in Finnish TV YLE 1 channel It was Russian version Band of Brothers, but not about elite airborne but in very Russian style or Soviet style about Penalty Battalion (Shtrafbat) Shtraf=Penalty Bat= I think it is abbreviation of battalion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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