Red vs Red Scenario and The Chechen War Theatre

[Roter Stern]

Woah, easy there Invader, or your “beloved” scenario designer might suffer from a severe case of a swollen ego

As for making 2 scenarios a day, I’d be happy to, as soon as there is a PayPal fund up and running to allow me to quit my day job

Also a very nice write-up, cheers! Although I must admit that I was afraid of people doing that with the arty… for all the brutality of the Russian army command, they would not level entire villages just because they suspected mild resistance. Proven resistance, yes, would in fact get pounded back to stone age – but walking a wall of shrapnel in front of each and every Company on patrol is pretty absurd … even for the crazy Russians

At the same time adding a “preserve” objective onto those two clusters of buildings is nonsense as well, since if they get levelled while taking out an enemy squad no one would even flinch about it.

The only way that I can think of solving this is to add a couple of additional AI plans where those buildings would be left empty. Or perhaps also adding more buildings, so that the two mortars will never be able to take them all out with a pre-emptive area-fire.

The reason it is so difficult is at least half due to the fact that infantry is broken currently.

Can we please keep these kinds of comments to the “this is not the real Combat Mission and will never be on my hard-drive” threads? For one, I think infantry is perfectly fine.

As for using the BTRs as “droppers”, I’m assuming you mean using them to ferry troops from the starting location into covered positions? A valid tactic indeed, but not when the enemy has as many RPGs teams as you have BTRs … and when those BTRs bog down every 50m

[ August 09, 2007, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: The Louch ]

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by The Louch:

It's enough to read about the first assault on Grozny (an urban Chechen capital), where 9 out of 10 of all BMPs and Tanks were taken out, many with troops still inside and refusing to get out :eek: ...yet strategically it was still considered a victory.

Strategically (and tactically), the first two battles of Grozny were disasters. In the first attack, whole brigades were wiped out (one of the brigades only had about 100 men make it out of the city).

The US Marines did extensive debriefs of the Chechnian rebels after the war and its the basis of USMC MOUT doctrine. The debriefs are available online. I found them using google

[George MC]

Hi The Louch

Just played through your scenario. Nice bit of work, and very enjoyable

Managed to pull a tactical victory for the Russians.

#################Possible Spoilers###############

The plan was to have the MGs set-up in overwatch and have the dismounted grounts move up in a skirmish line to locate enemy points of resitance. BTRs were held back to give mobile fire support with their guns (mounted units still inside)and when the moment was right move fast into town and storm the big building. Art was on-call to pound any located strongpoints.

All went well at first, moved up, made contact and enede up in a pretty fercocious gunbattle. My dismounts were soon pinned, but with arty, MG and BTR support managed to quell major resistance. Moved up the BTRs and then doscovered that there are RPGs, and a lot of em in that town. Quickly pulled back but not quick enough!

More fire at the buidling including mortars, then tired again, this time with more success. Stromed the large building and took that, but eventually lost the remaining two BTRS to flanking RPG fire when I moved on to clear the rest of the town.

Overall great wee fight, with a good brief and liked the opening screenshots. Nice one

Cheers fur noo

George

[Pandur]

@The Louch and everyone who could know...

i still have a 97% finished RED vs RED mission wich i can not even playtest becouse i have 1 obvious problem when i start it.

i cant hide the bots and at the same time giving them an ambush command.

1st

when i try to hide the enemy in the "deploy red" 3D view, like in CMx1, i had to notice they will unhide by themselfs 2 to 3 turns into the game, and so you see em from everywhere...dont know why.

most strange, when i hide a enemy MG team its allready unhiden again when i quit the "deploy red" view and go directly back to "deploy red". than all MG´s wich where priveiously hidden are unhidden again :confused:

2nd

i could give the AI the "hide" ordy by AI-plan, but than how do i give em the "ambushXXX" command than!? i dont want the AI to be hidden up to the point you trample on top of them.

3rd

i never tried to BAKE the scenario becouse i was a bit turned off by geting a "save" file than.

could it work, to hide all enemy units in the "setup phase" and at the same time have them the AmbushXXX command by AI-plan. i dont feel positive that they would stay hidden for any longer than under AI control... .

somehow i feel its now asumed that an ambush force isnt hidden but can just sit there and wait!?

did noone so far had similar problems!? i really dont get it...

[George MC]

Pandur

This all sounds like you need to tweak your AI Plan for the appropriate units. The units will only hide for the time period you specify. You can use the AI plans to change your AI controlled units behaviours on a timescale basis. That make sense?

Cheers fur noo

George

[Pandur]

This all sounds like you need to tweak your AI Plan for the appropriate units. The units will only hide for the time period you specify. You can use the AI plans to change your AI controlled units behaviours on a timescale basis. That make sense?

a good answer and that makes sense. but the problem is i cant adopt this information into the editor as it is.

for example, as it may be interessting, right now the AI doesnt have a order to move, so no AI groupe has a 2nd order past the setup order(in that encosed but open map they wouldnt come far but i thought about a technical group coming from somewhere).

so i figured i set both "exit after" and "exit befor" times to 00:00 as they shouldnt move but just ambush where i placed em manually.

now i dont know if i would need to set one of these times to the whole duration of the scenario, wich would make sens now after your post, but wich one!? both are named "exit" but they shouldnt exit

and on point, does that simply mean i would need to "define" the time they execute this first "setup order" in the AI plan too!? and if the time runs out they do nothing anymore!? that would explain why the RPG guners do nothing from the start when everything is set to 00:00

[Roter Stern]

Pandur,

I don’t think that giving your units a “hide” command in the 3D deployment view in the editor does anything. Although I’m not even really sure why you’d need to hide and ambush at the same time? Doesn’t the ambush command already tell the units to hide until enemy is with-in a certain range?

Also keep in mind that out in the open the ambushing troops will get spotted pretty quick regardless whether or not they’re hiding, but that’s normal… there is only so much cover a few blades of grass to provide to an entire platoon

The way I did it in my scenario above is dead simple and seems to work just fine for a static defence. All you really need to do is assign the deployment positions and give an ambush order - all under the “Setup” order. And as long as you don’t assign any additional orders, the AI troops should stay in their deployed locations hidden, waiting for the enemy to get in range.

I didn’t even bother changing the Exit settings, since I’m pretty sure with only a single Setup order given those don’t come into play at all. So leaving both on 00.00 should work just fine.

Also here’s the bit from the Manual that does a good job of explaining the Exit function

The “Exit Before” option causes the Group to try very hard to get to the next Order before the specified time is reached. This does not mean the Group will do it, just that it will try. If it has taken excessive casualties, is immobilized or heavily engaged it may blow the set “Exit Before” time.

The “Exit After” option does the opposite by telling the Group to stay at the current Map Zone until the specified time is reached. With this setting a Group never moves on to the next Order before the “Exit After” time is reached.

So no, you do not have to set these to the length of the battle, if you want your current order to be carried out for the rest of the battle. The last order given is carried out for the rest of battle by default.

[ August 09, 2007, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: The Louch ]

[Pandur]

The way I did it in my scenario above is dead simple and seems to work just fine for a static defence. All you really need to do is assign the deployment positions and give an ambush order - all under the “Setup” order. And as long as you don’t assign any additional orders, the AI troops should stay in their deployed locations hidden, waiting for the enemy to get in range.

i did it exactly the same way, except when i give em a deploymentzone they pleace themselfs in stupid places and quiet different than i had in mind, so i set em up in "deploy red" manually, and they dont have a deployment zone currently...yet my guys in trench!! 600meters away stand up and get spotted.

i allready had a BMP wich detected one of my squads in trench at 150 meters...when you manually hide your troops they mostly can stay hidden up to that point. sometimes just 200 meters against better vehicles...but enough.

fact is that my squad wich was hidden and got shot at DID NOT changed from the prone to the crouching position as normaly when you are unhiden, also the "hide" button was still activated. BUT the bots i spott en´mass are all in crouch or standing position, means they abandom their hide order long befor a unit comes into their ambush range wich leads to mass spott all over the place from one turn to the next one.

i dont know what the problem could be here, i try to fidle around a bit more, again, so far no luck.

[Roter Stern]

Make sure you’re giving the AI a very precise setup zone. For example, look at the way I have the Blue troops deploy in my scenario – instead of painting the entire village as one big setup zone, I painted a single tile in each building – this prevents the AI from placing troops out in the street.

Another thing you can try is giving two orders for the AI … have them Hide on Setup, set Exit After to say 5min, and issue a 2nd order to Ambush (no need to repaint an order area). That way the troops will hide for the first 5min and then attempt to ambush.

[Pandur]

instead of painting the entire village as one big setup zone, I painted a single tile in each building

thats what i originaly did to keep them from setting up out of the tenches, but sinc trench isnt as big as a house that doesnt work, also they mix up the weapons positions than, like RPG in the backrow and command in first row. not good

Another thing you can try is giving two orders for the AI … have them Hide on Setup, set Exit After to say 5min, and issue a 2nd order to Ambush (no need to repaint an order area). That way the troops will hide for the first 5min and then attempt to ambush.

if that the ONLY way an ambush works thats quiet bad! i tell the enemy squad to ambush the player at minute 10 for example, but the player rushes past them in minute 7!? pretty bad trigger option...

befor posting this, i was in the editor again and tried around with times and orders.

i find no way to; "hide the enemy as good as iam able as player AND at the same time maintaining an propper ambush execution"

thats impossible for me, especially since i cant just replace trenches with houses, where they would also stay unspotted when not hidden and not fireing for some time and distance

in my case enemy needs to stay hidden exactly to the point the player comes in range...and not some rough minutes befor or after.

EDIT: that doesnt mean you cant get some lucky spots, but ALL at ONCE is too much...

bad situation

[George MC]

You can set the ambush distance in the editor. Still not sure I see what your problem is? :confused:

I would have thought just setting your units up and leaving em with a command in the AI editor, say "ambush at 150m" would do the trick?

I guess this is what The Louch did with his units in his Chechen war scenario. He'd stuff popping up all the time hitting my units as they moved up.

It does sound like you are after a set of conditions for your pixel guts to react to - at the moment you can't do that, but I think, although don't quote me, that BFC do have in mind a set of conditions that the player can allocate to the AI. Don't know when that will be out though.

If you are really stuck email me your scenario and I'll take a wee look at it. Email address in my profile

Cheers fur noo

George Mc

[MikeyD]

This game is good...

[Pandur]

thats my map, with starting position...

so someone can imagine/see how it looks.

Still not sure I see what your problem is?

that was also the biggest problem with other people i asked

hm, how can i put it...

ok, i KNOW, through playing quickbattles(and scenarios too ), that you(as player) can hide people normaly from 250 down to 150 meters in trenches without hassle from enemy people or vehicles. just when they fire or unhide(not talking about moving) for longer there is probelm verry fast.

yet i DONT KNOW how to do the same thing for the AI as they unhide themselfs or are never hidden in the first place(i should go and look wiht "no FOW" setting if there still is such a thing)with the AmbushXXX command. they sit in their trenches with 150m ambush order and stare at my force from 600m away :confused: :confused:

my problem is so simple, but i cant decimate it...

[Tofke]

hi all

i have a problem with The Chechen war mission...

i put the .btt file in the directory Battlefront/CMSF/GameFiles/Scenarios/

and when i want to playing this mission it does not appear in the scenarii list...

i'm using a french version, the missions have an english title in the scenarii directory whereas ingame they have a french title (screenshot)maybe the problem is here no????? :confused: or i was mistaken in the directory ??????

i really want to play this mission, any help is welcome thx...

[Roter Stern]

isnt there a French "Scenarios" folder? i.e. \CMSF\GameFiles\Scénario\ or something?

I'm guessing whichever language you have the game set to will determine with folders are used.

[Tofke]

yes there is a "fichiers du jeu" directory... since all this time i had not seen it...

thx The Louch

[Roter Stern]

Coming soon to a mountain region near you...

…the War continues

[Paper Tiger]

Just got round to playing this one this morning and had a blast. I rememebre reading your original comments on the Red AI scripting " best the AI could do was get completely and utterly slaughtered." Hmm, same as me.

This one has replayability so I'll try it again later this week. Good job.

[Bigduke6]

FWIW here are some tips on what that region looks like, for what it's worth:

Villages are tightly packed. Each family dwelling is a cluster of buildings around a compound. The main house is always two stories, and if it is a traditional mountain house the main entrance is on the 2nd floor, you get to it by exterior stairs. The compound is almost always pretty self-sufficient, you could find a barn, sheds, a chicken coop, maybe a compost pile. No pig sty, obviously. (But in Chechen villages you sometimes find them raising turkeys. Go figure.)

Each compound has a wall, sometimes 1.5 meters high, usually brick, sometimes metal. Same deal for the mosque, almost always there are buildings around it. As a result village streets can sometimes be like these corridors with walls on either side.

The old buildings are stone and mortar, the newer ones are brick and mortar, and the government ones are brick and mortar covered with stucco. Typical government buildings are the village council/former local CPSU HQ, school, police station, and House of Culture (which gets used for marriage receptions, village meetings, etc.)

If you are talking about most Chechen villages, there are trees everywhere. The place where the fighting takes place is somewhere between mountainous and heavily forested, think maybe upstate Maine or Colorado. Further, the region is intensively tilled, near where people live and along most roads there are little patches where people grow food. There are always orchards, and there usually are fields that are overgrown for one reason or another.

Once you get outside the village proper it is almost always woods, sometimes second growth with tons of underbrush, and sometimes, the further you get from civilization, original growth with big trees and little to no underbrush. The higher up you get the more likely you have evergreens, obviously.

Don't forget water. (Which is impossible in CMSF, I know). Pretty much all terrain in the region is determined by where the run-off from the mountains goes. Most of the time, what you have for a river bed is a big wide flat field of rocks of various sizes with a little rivulet running along it. In Spring and during rains the thing fills up, but even when dry vehicles can cross it easily, it's mucky in places.

If it has been raining, it is difficult to overstate how bad the roads are in that area. I've seen supposed roads in a heavy rain do a good impression of a waterfall.

If you are simulating a village in, say, Ingushetia where some one like Basaev has come to raise hell, then the ground is much flatter and the roads are better. Foilage is a bit further cut back, and there are more Soviet-style buildings. The closer you get to big cities like Grozny or Vladikavkaz you get things like rail roads, factories, electric power lines, stores, and especially those big 12-story super-ugly concrete panel apartment buildings. If you've seen pictures of Serbia or Bosnia, it's something like that, but much, much poorer.

No matter where they are even the smaller villages frequently have the remains of some dead Soviet enterprise nearby, usually food- or light-manufacturing-related like maybe a dairy or a sewing mill or a tractor repair station or something. Often, if you have a former Soviet enterprise which is dead and pretty much looted down to the walls, you have an apartment block or two nearby, 2-4 stories, which is still inhabited.

If you are simulating a village near the tree line then the building materials are rock and wood, and roads are atrocious but off-road for vehicles is even more atrocious. The Caucauses are serious mountains and once you get away from civilization a bit the only way to move is by foot, either your own or by pack animal. The high villages are pretty much untouched by Soviet construction technique, looks pretty unchanged from the Middle Ages except for off Lada or motorcycle.

Of course, once you get north of the Terek lots of the land is really flat, rolling hills and suitable for mechanized operations. For practical purposes, think CMBB and Ukraine or South Russia, and you won't go far wrong.

And of course lots of Grozny looks (well, looked, they're rebuilding a bit these days) like a Stalingrad movie set.

The Chechens, not being stupid, have always avoided fighting the Russians in the flat open places. For them if they start shooting, it's pretty much always infantry terrain with short LOS and lots of cover to beat feet when the Russian army finally shows up.

Hope this helps.

[Roter Stern]

Amazing insight, thanks a ton for sharing this Bigduke!

Most of my impressions of the area come from watching news reports and an occasional documentary or a movie back in the day. Although I’m glad to see that despite not looking into the Chechen conflict for a while, I’m still mostly on track …mostly

Just out of curiosity, where does such detailed knowledge of the area comes from?

Currently most of my terrain inspiration and reference is drawn from this photo gallery - http://www.amina.com/gfx/showgallery.php?cat=539 (the 6 links on the left are sub-categories). The same website also has an article on Chechen architecture, even if some of it can’t be modeled in CMSF, it’s interesting none-the-less - http://www.amina.com/article/house.html

Another great gallery I came across is http://pvo.guns.ru/weapon/engl/ - contains an unparalleled amount of photos of equipment, soldiers, and just general terrain and architecture from the Conflict.

Also in case some people don’t check the new Scenario forum, yesterday I posted the second instalment of my RvR Chechen War scenarios:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=72;t=000027

[Schmoly War]

The Louch,

This is information ive been looking for myself.

A quick check on google map will also show typical layouts for chechen villages. I see alot of these E (minus the middle -) shaped buildings. Bigduke; are these typically farmer buildings and single storeys?

Ive been thinking about a Komsomolskoye type scenario or a Kizlyar raid one (which has to be the craziest insurgent raid ever, read up on it).

The reports I read on the Komsomolskoye battle is that trenches were dug in between the houses and that reinforcements managed to sneak in (and eventually breakout) from the nearby woods. Could make for an intense fight.

The village isnt really hi res on google map and this was the only overview I could find:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar_raid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Komsomolskoye

[ August 14, 2007, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Schmoly War ]

[Bigduke6]

Good pix. It is just my personal opinion, but if I were to try and model the terrain where most of the fighting took/takes place, I would use these as a guide, these are a couple of good examples:

Of course, that is the countryside, built-up areas are, well, built up areas. Here's a linkie from that site you found to some Grozny pix, in case you didn't see them:

http://www.amina.com/kamina/4439.html

[Roter Stern]

Funny enough, that's the image I used as a guide line for my "Black Bear Down" scenario, although I chose to leave out the little settlement pockets, simulating a more remote location.

Found this collection of maps through my searchings, pretty random, but none the less useful:

http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/Chechen.html

Also an excellent website that contains lists of Federal and Rebel units participating in the conflict, timeline of events, and numerous articles describing specific engagements … however it’s all in Russian, so either Google-translate it, or grab your handy “Red October Approved” Russian dictionary

http://chechnya.genstab.ru/

[molotov_billy]

The Louch - fantastic scenario! I really enjoyed this one.

I've played through the entire campaign, and I have to say, this is the first time that I really had to carefully use combined arms tactics to achieve even a "tactical victory." I had to dismount my infantry, use MG's for overwatch, use the BTR's for support, use mortars for supression, etc etc.

Perfect size, too - I play in RT and it was great to not have to pause every 10 seconds to manage multiple companies.

Anyway - more more more!

[Bigduke6]

That's quite a site you uncovered. In case some one missed it, here is a url to to the maps, most of which aren't tight enough for scenario design, but a couple are. (Pervomaisk any one?)

Chechnya map linkie

There are also some excellent OBs and combat histories.