How to destroy the United States

[arado234]

One other thing is when politicans ask scientists to research anything and when the scientists come back with the answer the politicans DONT want to here they just ignore it or radically water it down.No wonder so many people dont vote.

[Exel]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

Polls awnsers can be setup by the political parties For example you got a goverment with more then two parties, like in most Euro countries. Those can set up coalitions to reach a certain threshold to be able to submit a poll proposal. Then the people vote on the solutions that the different parties come up with.

The point I was trying to make was that the parties formulating the poll questions want to get something done, they can make the polls such that they offer no real policy alternative, at least not in the key issues. The electorate then becomes a rubber stamp for government policy without any real power to influence it either way. The government decides both the issues and the options under vote.

Ofcourse it's not suitable for expert stuff. But for example things like the following it's suitable, if you inform the people good enough:

The deathpenalty

Immigration

Defense Projects

Joining the EU

You don't think defense projects require expert knowledge?

Referendums can be good in occasional, exceptionally important and influential decisions that should not be taken by a single government. Such might be changes to the country's constitution or membership in an intergovernmental organization (eg. EU or NATO). But those issues are characterized by the fact that they can be formulated into simple YES/NO polls that simply give or deny the government the mandate to do something.

In the model i just suggested people get to know alot more about who's representing them and what they stand for, and they also get alot more involved.

You're assuming that given a vote people will always use it. It is true that occasional referendums can be used to inform people about the subject at hand and also make them participate more in the policy making. However if the referendums or elections are too frequent, people will lose interest. Most simply don't want to be politically active all the time. More elections doesn't automatically result in more participation, but just more elections the people don't vote in.

See the US for example; they have frequent elections for a plethora of government posts of varying levels of importance. The turnout in most of those elections is very low; the results are dictated by the active minority while the majority abstains, threatening the legitimacy of the whole system - in my country they freak out when the turnout goes below 70%, iirc in the US many elections have barely 30% voter turnout.

If the elections are held less often and to a lesser number of posts, the people may actually have the energy to be interested; to find out what the ideologies and past records in office of parties/candidates are before making the decision of who to vote.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Ottosmops:

I think that your argument, that the badly informed masses should leave the decisions to the experts is not valid.

Firstly, to every interesting topic there are different experts with different opinions.

Secondly, isn't it also more unreliable to first authorize a politician to authorize an expert to make a decision for me, than to make the decision myself in the first place?

The experts should have the duty to explain the problems to the ordinary people, not to incapacitate them.

Most of the time the majority of the people don't care to be informed no matter how much you try to inform them. People want to spend time with their hobbies, family and work rather than investigating every political issue. Instead the people can periodically choose who they give the burden of being informed. Those representatives remain accountable to the electorate for their decisions. But if you give a decision to people who know very little or nothing about the given issue, they will be dependant on those who know to be informed - then those who know can manipulate the decision, but they are not accountable to the people who actually made the decision.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Moonslayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Okay, Moonslayer, I defer to your greater insight, the United States has little or no influence outside of it's own borders.

I didn't say that

Your comment seemed to suggest that if the US economy crashes then the rest of the world is in for a similar fate. That is simply not the case. Of course there would be some rather big ripples as the US does have a pretty big influence... but to say we are all dependent on the US is a little blinkered to say the least. </font>

[n0kn0k]

You don't think defense projects require expert knowledge?

Actually they were thinking about having one here About buying the JSF or not i believe. So for questions like major investmentprojects they could ask to postpone it like 10 years, or continue it now. Not like there's any special knowledge needed for that.

But it was just a random example.

[Exel]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You don't think defense projects require expert knowledge?

Actually they were thinking about having one here About buying the JSF or not i believe. So for questions like major investmentprojects they could ask to postpone it like 10 years, or continue it now. Not like there's any special knowledge needed for that.</font>

[Moonslayer]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Also, I agree 100% on your socialism remarks. More than most other forms of government, socialism and communism would require a degree of selflessness that is flat out impossible to achieve in large populations.

I am still hopeful that at some point in the future this will cease to be true... utopia may still yet come to pass

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Moonslayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Also, I agree 100% on your socialism remarks. More than most other forms of government, socialism and communism would require a degree of selflessness that is flat out impossible to achieve in large populations.

I am still hopeful that at some point in the future this will cease to be true... utopia may still yet come to pass </font>

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by xwormwood:

Pffffft... You're a victim of the years of US-propaganda : the economy of Europe is bigger then that of the US. Watch less CNN and more BBC, I'd say

And the GDP per capita is bigger in Luxembourg, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark and Iceland then in the US. The rest of the west-european countries aren't THAT far behind, contrary to what the US may try to tell you.

Add to that the rising wealth levels of 1 billion Indians, 1.2 billion Chinese, 100 million east-europeans and I don't buy the whole "the US is the most important economic power in the world".

The reason why people take so much notice in the US economy is that the dollar is the international measure standard. Take that away and the US is one of the 4-5 equal economic blocks in the world.

Besides, in 25 years time, we'll all depend on the Chinese. That is, if the averag Chinese then doesn't pollute as much as the average American now or we will all be dead anyway.

[Desert Dave]

To paraphrase Robert Kennedy,

Who paraphrased it from some old,

Long since expired Cat,

Who that was, don't know, don't care,

It's not important anyhow, just now.

_________________________

Some see things as they ARE,

And ask... why?

Others,

See things as they are not,

And, have NEVER been,

And ask... why not?

__________________________

Communism?

Some of it good, most of it stifling,

Dreadful, totalitarian-tending.

Socialism?

Parts of it could work,

Lots of it would not, ever.

Utopia?

LOLOLOL!

Well, it's a surreal dream-scape

And allows us ineffectual escape.

Like... Walter Mitty

Goes to the Circus

Kind of cartoon thing.

Capitalism?

Simple.

It's gonna kill us all.

And,

Most likely accomplished,

By... BURYING us under

Tons and tons and tons and tons and tons

Of... TRASH.

Yeah, come-back Kid,

It'll all disintegrate in 10-20,000 years.

We ain't got that long.

Think of this.

How much garbage do you carry out,

All... by... your... own self,

Each and every day of the week?

Yippee! I AM free!

Well, multiply that by 7 billion. :eek:

Bury it in the sick suffering Earth?

Carry it on long ships,

And dump it in the gagging Seas?

That'll work.

For... a little while longer.

So.

Now we got China, and Russia,

And India, and many many others

Demanding their industrial due.

Ipso in facto,

Now we can MULTIPLY that amount

Of trash and dross and garbage

By another 1, 2, 3, 7 more!... billions.

Whee, what fun it will be

For - YOUR grand-kids!

To clean up.

Hmmmm... where do they begin?

OH!

I see.

Technnology will save us!

LOLOL!

We can send it into... outer-most space!

Though, hmmm... that's expensive eh?

OK,

Back to the original thought,

To envision... what is NOT.

How about?

Some combination of all of the following:

Plato's Republic.

USA Bill of Rights.

British Parliamentary System.

(... I LIKE that idea where the PM, as Blair

MUST predictably appear and answer all sorts

of - sometimes outright indignant, though

apparently respectful, questions... ALSO,

the notion that a Government can be: delivered

unto the trash heap - along with all those

mod electronics that go defunct in a year

or 2 - in a vote of "no confidence!" IF we

had that here in USA, them Oil Goons woulda been pitched out years ago! )

So, on we go,

Ten Commandments.

Christ the Carpenter's "Sermon on the Mount."

Olde Knights' "Code of Honor."

SOME Euro versions of "social democracy"

(... as inexactly, imperfectly integrated

with industrial/entrepeneurial necessity )

And etc etc etc.

WHO!

Will NOW come together

(... NO! NOT biddy

Hillary's crazy CON--vocation - "the Global

Village!"

LOL! That's only more of the current

trend towards "one world Government," which

is anathema, at least,

to me... it's just NOT "human

nature" to live en masse, and

the "tribal instinct" will, as proven out

over many millenia, NEVER go away, it's here

to stay, so we may as well admit that,

and go from there)

AND!

Dream up something better than what we got,

So to avoid? Is it even possible?

The disaster we are surely headed for,

THEN!

IF the power-brokers and World Bank

And Federal Reserve Board

(... who took away everybody's GOLD

and replaced it with worthless paper,

which, BTW, does NOT have to be

redeemed, and one day, quite likely,

won't be - like those promised pensions

by the Super Corps just... suddenly,

one fine Blue Bird warbling

day... immaterialized!)

And those who now HAVE ALL THEY NEED,

And much more?

Don't like the NEW form of governance?

Tough sh*t - throw 'em the hell out.

Right along with those billions

Of little plastic doo-dads,

Let 'em shovel wet cement I say,

For a couple bucks a day.

See how they like it.

OK.

Time to - QUIT thinking in terms of

What you NOW got,

In ANY of its' many iterations,

And start thinking of what... might be?

Different?

Unique?

All including?

Fair,

Honorable,

Each respecting,

Challenging,

Allowing for Nirvana, Sartori, Heaven,

Hell, Purgatory, the 9 Circles,

Reincarnation, existential nothing-ness,

Atheism - WHATEVER floats yer boat,

And, finding the good,

And, deliberately TRYING

To displace the bad

(... well, some are "sociopaths," and

nothing to do about that but put 'em

away and throw that dungeon key

on our ever growing! Trash Heap, LOL!)

Some of the dwindling resources, for each?

Instead of - as in USA,

The top 20% controlling 80% of the wealth?

Now, it's alright with me

How YOU "rationalize" and justify it

(... IE - ME, I am superior, blessed by innate

brains or, more like it, lack of common

conscience, and DESERVE all that excess

that I, and I ALONE... earned!

What ego-maniacal... crap. )

EVERYBODY born on this earth

is entitled to a part of it, IMHO,

It dont' BELONG to:

Exxon-Mobile,

The Pentagon,

The Queen of England,

Bill Gates,

Rupert Murdoch,

Oprah Winfrey,

Barry Bonds,

Whoever it was who started E-Bay,

A Saudi Prince, or Shiek,

Well, you get the idea.

The dirt, the soil, the very earth

And all its majestic spendours,

Belongs to... each.

Not too difficult a proposition

To imagine?

We need more

Fee feisty Cats like - Spartacus,

And WAY, way less of those

Who somehow suppose

That they, and they alone... are

Somehow?

DESERVING,

And should be allowed to create

As much... TRASH... as they please!

LOL, how... absurd.

How awful... small.

[ February 11, 2007, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[jon_j_rambo]

This world is not my home, I'm a stranger in a strange land.

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

This world is not my home, I'm a stranger in a strange land.

We are Pilgrims in a strange land, we are so far from our homeland

with each passing day it seems so clear this world will never want us here ,

we're not welcome in this world of wrong, we are Foreigners who don't belong

Chorus:

We are Strangers, we are Aliens, We are not of this world

We are envoys who must tarry with this message we must carry,

there's so much to do before we leave with so many more who may believe

Our mission here can never fail & the gates of Hell will not prevail

(CHROUS x2)

Jesus told us men would hate us, but we must Be of good cheer,

He has overcome this world of darkness, soon we will depart from here

(CHROUS x2

lyrics: Not of this world, Petra, 1983

[jon_j_rambo]

@xwormwood --- And the name of the star is called Wormwood...

[xwormwood]

my dear wormwood, ...

:cool:

[Guest Mike]

Finiancial colapse of the US might not spark financial collapse world wide, but it would be bad news for a lot of places.

From the EU trade commission site:

The EU and US are responsible together for about two fifths of world trade. Trade flows across the Atlantic are running at around E1.7 billion a day. In the year 2003, the total amount of two-way investment was over E1.5 trillion, composed of E731 billion of EU Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) in the US and around E772 billion of US FDI in Europe. The overall "transatlantic workforce" is estimated at 12 to 14 million, of which roughly half are Americans who owe their jobs directly or indirectly to EU companies. In the year 2005, exports of EU goods to the US amounted to E250 billion, while imports from the US amounted to E234 billion. Concerning trade in services, EU exports to the US amounted to E108.6 billion in 2004 while EU imports from the US amounted to E93.0 billion.

the EU would not be a well unit if the US collapsed!

Collapse in value of the US$ would see massive losses in foreign exchange earnings held in US$ by many countries (China holds over $1 trillion US$ IIRC)

[Retributar]

Europe & Asia hold huge amounts of U.S. Dollars,...so if the U.S. Dollar did collapse,...you can count on it that only the U.S. wouldn't suffer,...many other nation's would likely even just suffer more!.

We will be seeing sign's from this day onward's of a progression of event's leading up to the very likely collapse of the U.S. Dollar, but it will not happen all at once. The 1st MAJOR incident that i see happening is that in late 2007... around 1 1/2 Trillion Dollars of 'ARMS'[Adjustable Rate Mortgage's] will be coming due, and many/most of those holder's of that particular set of Mortgage's will fail to requalify for them!. That will mean around 4-Million homeowner's will lose their homes, right there and then. As of this moment, there is a 34% increase in available homes for sale as compared to the year before [Not withstanding that many homes have also been removed from the for-sale market until next spring, when these seller's will try to re-sell their home's again].

Once that ARM's situation take's place in the latter-half of 2007, then greater instability will be shown to be in the housing market[No way to hide it anymore], which will help fuel more panic in the Housing industry which according to estimates will ultimately involve at least 40-Million Home-Owner's. Not only that, but i believe that around 25% of American job's rely on the Good-Health of the Housing Industry!.

Once the U.S. Dollar collapse's, then...according to Rumor, the 'North American Union' is to take place against everyone's wishes,...and the 'Amero' [New Replacement Currency] is to take place of the Mexican Peso, U.S. & Canadian Dollar. A 12-lane Super-Highway is as of now as i speak being planned to go into construction right away. This High-Way will run from Mexico through Texas...to Kansas City and finally to Canada. Ships from ASIA will then go-to Mexican Port's to unload their cargo at less than Union Rates of the West Coast...& Mexican Truck Driver's will be moving this Cargo/Good's throughout the North American Union.

I sent some of this information to 'Lou Dobbs' and others from where i found it, and Lou has been bringing this subject up frequently,...so i can't JUST BE FULL OF IT!.

I am in dread of what is about to take place!.

[Guest Mike]

I'l bet you a dollar that 4 million homeowners will NOT lose their homes overnight - the banks will manage to put togethr packages for them all rather than collapse.......

[TaoJah]

Contrary to what you may think, it's very rare that a bank forces a family to sell their house.

This will even be more true in a bad house market : imagine what it will do to the value of the houses if 4 million people are all at once forced to sell...

I am not a fan of banks, to say the least, but they don't just sell houses like that : they give counter-proposals, often adjusting the rate downwards, spreading payments over more years, give you a payment free month or two...

Of course, this is the RATIONAL explaination. The trouble is panicking people : once they see rising default numbers, they make a HUGE deal out of it and start talking about "25% of American job's rely on the Good-Health of the Housing Industry", "the U.S. Dollar collapses" and even a "New Replacement Currency".

From a RATIONAL economic point of view, nothing is lost when payments are spread out over more years. It's the irrational reaction that is scary...

[SeaMonkey]

You guys are so comical! All this reactionary stuff about economics, global warming, hunger, oppression, disease, etc., on and on.

That's just the point, "on and on". For over a half a century I've been getting up listening to the doomsayers, and life goes on as it did before.

Just as my Grandpa used to tell me about the coming debacles that never truly unfolded into global calamity.

And they just keep on coming, fear mongering.....it just kind of makes me smile now.

Ridiculous......when it gets really bad, something will be done about it, or if its so bad nothing can be done, then everyone is in trouble.

When everyone is in trouble..."no one"(notice that its two words) is in trouble.

Who is it? What is it that feeds on all this media generated fear? The sun comes up and I go about my business, but this measly existance could end in the flash of a millisecond.

So What? I enjoy it for what its worth, another "Day in the Life".

Don't worry, be happy!

[Exel]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

And they just keep on coming, fear mongering.....

I think the US in particular is full of it. At least up here it's much more moderate - maybe it's the cold temperatures.

[jon_j_rambo]

Things won't get crazy until after the Rapture.

[Lars]

Yeah, those people will definitely be skipping on their mortgages!

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

You guys are so comical! All this reactionary stuff about economics, global warming, hunger, oppression, disease, etc., on and on.

That's just the point, "on and on". For over a half a century I've been getting up listening to the doomsayers, and life goes on as it did before.

Just as my Grandpa used to tell me about the coming debacles that never truly unfolded into global calamity.

And they just keep on coming, fear mongering.....it just kind of makes me smile now.

Ridiculous......when it gets really bad, something will be done about it, or if its so bad nothing can be done, then everyone is in trouble.

When everyone is in trouble..."no one"(notice that its two words) is in trouble.

Who is it? What is it that feeds on all this media generated fear? The sun comes up and I go about my business, but this measly existance could end in the flash of a millisecond.

So What? I enjoy it for what its worth, another "Day in the Life".

Don't worry, be happy!

Legion are the number, SM,

Yea verily, are the number of Scoff Cats

Who have been handsomely gifted

For dutifully DENYING a thing

Which quite apparently... exists,

Does NOT ipso in facto exist - at all!

Usually, some body with vested interest,

Say,

Like a fat cat that has got ALL he

Or she needs,

And has no concern IF the next neighbor do.

It's REALLY the rage

These days - the... Credo, Dude,

"I got mine, ta hell with at mangy Cat

Over there, over the border!"

Well, I guess it's like you said once:

"I am a Texan FIRST,

And an American next."

LOL!

Well,

Got some news for ya.

"Fear mongering" and "double-speak"

Ain't o-riginating

From out of the mouth of

Bawling Babes, eh?

It cometh from - hallowed halls

And echoes offa marble,

Dirtied white walls.

"War IS Peace."

"Black is White."

(... IE, in terms of "equal

opportunity and access" I mean, LOL!)

See, it's all... of a piece.

Like... Day into Night.

Sorta like so:

The gloaming is what is nebulous

And - deliberately so confusatory here.

Who can SEE coming disaster,

There in the HALF DARK,

When the bark of the willow tree

Looks exactly like the Devil's mark!

At's more & more alleged to be

EVERYWHERE at the once!

LOLOL!

BTW, I anyhow, ain't need NO body else

To tell me things aint'... quite... right

Out there.

All I gotta do

Is take a long walk through

The ummmm... rather shoddy built,

Clutter & dross littered City,

Over the walls where gangstas have left

Their infantile spew-marks,

And on out into

The cactii and scrub,

Them snake trails, and following

The (... here and

gone again!) Roadrunner tail - through

The flash-flooded gulleys & washes.

Take a... good... long... look-see.

Consult MOSTLY my... gut.

No need for enny 'em "experts,"

Most in particular, that kind

Are, like I say, sore handsomely

PAID

To - as the street mime also do,

Intimate - what a Fool!

Don't you know?

Such and so is indeed MY truth.

Can't you SEE that, drone-on Dude?

Or, also as mentioned,

They got it so awful good,

They'll just insist and insist and insist

The "dreamed up" problems

(... as, recently, all them - bees?

just... disappearing? Where ever did

they go?)

Just...do NOT exist.

LOL, times have changed since yer Grandpa

Roamed the big-fin roads, yes?

Things have... accelerated.

I wonder?

We got enough... brakes,

Are..."techno efficient/sufficient?"

__________________________________

BTW: Along with:

"Don't worry, be happy,"

You forgot to also say:

"Have a nice Day! "

LOLOL!

[ February 13, 2007, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Things won't get crazy until after the Rapture.

Must've happened a while back and no-one noticed then.

[arado234]

One thing is for sure,as long as govts. refuse to trust each other(for whatever reason)there will always be gross amounts of money spent on the military which really benifits very few.America is in debt over 4 trillion dollars and spends vast sums on the military.One other scary fact is that countries that spend lots on the military tend to use it to try and justify the spending.Lets hope this turns out to be false this time.