For all you "I want to beat Terif" players =)

[Blashy]

Take note of Terif's ovservations and you will see why you will only beat him when you decide to study the game as he does.

This is something I've noticed since beta, if a player got down and studied every script and their causes and worked them down mathematically on their causes, he would most likely master the game and be unbeatable.

This is what Terif did in SC and what he's done in SC2, my hat off to him for this because even I as a beta tester have not gotten down to this level.

A good example is Denmark:

I knew Denmark boosted USA / USSR and it might be beneficial to them rather than Axis but he got down and got the numbers exactly and that is what puts him above the rest.

This is also something I was hoping to skew a little in SC2 and I've got a suggestion going to curb that somewhat but it never will 100%.

So until someone else's commits to the numbers the way he does, forget about beating him, unless he has a few bad rolls, hehe.

[jon_j_rambo]

Taken you 4 years to figure that out? Why did I say give Yodl a free trip to Canada & have him test this puppy. Son, listen to wisdom & not your own folly.

[Preusse]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Taken you 4 years to figure that out? Why did I say give Yodl a free trip to Canada & have him test this puppy. Son, listen to wisdom & not your own folly.

How come everything you write is of no real significance or interest to anyone?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I'm not sure it's good game design to let players

become God and know pretty much the benefits and

consequences of their actions. I commend Terif on

his dedication to his craft, but if all you need to

win is to know pretty much will happen beforehand

if you do X, Y, or Z, then there's not much mystery

to it all is there?

Is there a way to encode the scripts so that only

the scenario designer can see/edit them? Another

option is to make the scripts more stochastic (random)

somehow...

[Liam]

well, that's where you all mess up, you've got a locked script.. Historical Script and random script, making Terif's abilities impotent in the memorization department, should each new game be a new set of possabilities and since history itself had so many possiblities how come this doesn't? That's the beauty of Europe Unversalis II, even though we had set scripts and the same, there was a lot of random factors that came into play that could turn a Major Power to dust within a few faithful moves.. You could usually learn the Engine, but randomizers would be setup to make it harder each time...

Change the Script to random History, make the Math Some guessing, like the Weather.. It mights now or might now Guns, might hit those men at 4 degrees left they may not.. A country may suddenly change allegiance due to a random political event

on and on and on

[Blashy]

All games are pretty much like that.

As for having more random factor.

Don't worry, I've been working on that one pretty hard. The goal is to do my best to remain historical to some degree. Hopefully in the futur .

It is something Hubert is very open minded about (that goes for pretty much anything to make the game more challenging), mind you I do not like putting words in his mouth because time is always an issue.

But I have a pretty good idea on having a good start on random "realistic" events.

[ June 23, 2006, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[Liam]

wonderful, random factor like this

Stalin Paranoid Event 1 through 50

with each event there is a chance of increase in War Readiness

or German unit spotted by Russian Spy Possability Event.. meaning with Intel tech or without, increased with RR will Hike

So many could be scripted to improve the Chance probability of a random event causing the game to be thrown off. perhaps Paris, Amsterdam and Brest much all be captured in order for France surrender one game. Random arrangement, you'll find the rythms but TCP IP it'll be different..

in EU2 we do it much like this. There are variables, but not enough random qualities so we program them in.. More the better, that way when Moscow falls in 1714 say to Sweden an event doesn't happen every single time. Though it seems wargamers like the same events over and over, perhaps we program in several events may have occurred that were based on historical fact and that makes it ify... Moscow falls, Cossack Rebels come to Russia's Aide. The Country doesn't Surrender, or the Capitols switch randomely.. So many things So many great possiblities

That is was confuses the math genuises with the high IQs, they cannot adapt to the factor of Chance as well... That is why most of them do not like the Tech aspect of SC. Remeber World War II was not preordained it was a very chancy thing. Anything could've happened or else 56 million wouldn't have died

Originally posted by Blashy:

All games are pretty much like that.

As for having more random factor.

Don't worry, I've been working on that one pretty hard. The goal is to do my best to remain historical to some degree. Hopefully in the futur .

It is something Hubert is very open minded about (that goes for pretty much anything to make the game more challenging), mind you I do not like putting words in his mouth because time is always an issue.

But I have a pretty good idea on having a good start on random "realistic" events.

[Sombra]

Oh yeah please no more siberians arrive 1st January 1942.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Sombra:

Oh yeah please no more siberians arrive 1st January 1942.

More like no siberians arrive at all thx.

[Terif]

In SC 1 there were no open scripts and players had to figure things out by trial and error or testing in hotseat (@ John Di Fool: scripts were encoded so only the designer could see them ). But this hiding of the various triggers only favoured the more experienced players and resulted in many pages that had to be written (and read...) for multiplayer guides so newer players could have a chance also. In SC 2 everyone can have a look at the scripts without much playing/testing by themselves – better solution for the players and with all the deliberate modding possibilities a simple necessity, otherwise people couldn´t mod the game .

Knowing the basics is one element you need for a successful campaign both in SC 1 and 2 (BTW: a multiplayer guide for SC 2 basics can be found at Panzerliga: here ), but not the only one. In SC 2 there are much more random elements than in SC 1 and you don´t know for sure if action A causes result B, in most cases there is only a certain percentage for this or that to happen.

So you need to know the basics that will cost you the game if you don´t care about them, but more important is flexibility in your strategies: you have to change your plans and strategies according to the various events that happen - be it tech developements, diplomacy, DoW effects whatever. Neither in SC 1 nor SC 2 you can close your eyes from the situation and stick to one plan till the end, at least not if you want to have a chance to win and not surrender every second game cause events/tech/weather...etc..didn´t go the way you wanted them .

Key to victory is always to change plans according to the situation on the battlefield, in diplomacy, tech and most important: dependent on the opponents actions.

P.S another important element is to be patient and not throw a game away when it is not necessary - a tendency too many players sometimes have...so never surrender too early. Especially in SC 2 where you have no report and therefore never know the real strength of the enemy – your side may seem to be weak, but perhaps the enemy is even weaker...only if you surrender, you have in deed lost the war .

Here in SC 2, all players now have the possibility to develope new strategies and counter strategies, that´s what makes the most fun in my eyes . This is even more important since it is also a key to victory to surprise the enemy and to be able to counter his actions. Maybe a certain action for itself is economically a disadvantage, but if you can achieve a strategical advantage or be able to disturb the enemy plans, this can be much more valuable.

A good example for strategy and counters is Denmark:

- if Axis attack it by themselves or Allies expect them to attack, then Allies don´t need to care about it

- If Allies know that Axis will not attack it because it is economically a disadvantage, then they can decide to attack it by themselves (BEF to kill the defender + corps to occupy the city), so they can enter the baltic and kill most of the german fleet and also force Germany into a 2-front war during the french campaign.

- This will work if Axis can be surprised, but if Axis know that Allies will attack Denmark cause they know Axis won´t do it, then Axis can also prepare counter messures that will lead into disaster for the allied invasion force.

- On the other side when Allies expect Axis to prepare countermessures for an allied invasion of Denmark then....

Summary:

Never do what the enemy expects you to do and if you play against a certain opponent, avoid if possible to use exactly the same actions/strategies you used in the last game(s), cause then he can prepare and counter. Knowing the basics is basic, but more important is to be flexible, to be willing to change plans if necessary and not to give up too early.

[ June 24, 2006, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Cary]

Terif,

Nice piece on strategy. I think you've captured the strategic interactions that make the game fascinating.

I'd add: it seems it might be a low-risk strategy to drop a French diplo chit or two on Norway -- all it takes is one hit to flip Norway over to allied leaning and cut the convoys. At this point Denmark seems a more worthwhile diversion for the Axis.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yodl nipping some Jack, and explaining SC2.

[Liam]

That is fundamental with any wargame and great advice. I have sat in a poker room with 6 bucks and turned into 300 in one NIGHT! Because I was patient, I have also sat in a PokerRoom with 250 over everyone's small stacks and dwindled down to 0 because I was inflexible and upset. However SC does not have the Chance Variables that Poker does especially No Limit...

I'd say chance in No Limit poker is huge but in SC quite different.. If you follow a set you'll win, otherwise Terif wouldn't win 95% of the time...

Poker luck is like 90% that is why the same players do not win 90% of the time. more like 5-10% of the tiem... Also they can afford it

now say in EU2 you've got more variables, and soon EU3 Johnny Rambo gets Randomely placed in Russia while I'm Poland and Terif in Brandenburg. By 1800, I'VE GOT UBER Reds and UBER Germans and my Poor Poles are their Thralls by scripted event and the fact their flanks are covered by weak players I won't name

Plus Terif happened to pick an economic nation, and Rambo an Expanionist Country, so both hit well. Meanwhile my Poland was a Diplomatic Warmongering Country that didn't suite me well. However, there is a twist and turn here I can reach out and smash Terif in his infancy without Skill, with some luck with combat Rolls, who Knows, perhaps his classic Generals are lesser than mine early Knowing this is in the script I will kill him before his budding nation can Flower. Then he gets France and Venice to aide him and Rambo to kill me, a gangbang because he uses politics.. Slightly different interaction but knowing the Scripts the Files, I know that if I do not kill such a potential Threat I will in the end be destroyed or his little Girl... Meanwhile same for Rambo, an Uber Expanionist with my Territorial Interests must be kept in Check

It's checks and balances basically, and too much one way makes it out of whack, and out of balance. The Random qualities can give someone Like me a second Chance to kill Terif even if he GangBangs me the first time though. In 20 years I can repair my economy and I can hypertech, and convince the little girls in France and Venice to aide me and perhaps I know the scripts are the Times of Troubles for say Russia so I'm kewl with Rambo busy trying to put down revolts..

Now you see the complexities this is a 2player game, that'll change later.. But you're locked into Axis & Allies I feel that there is a need for a random quality to the Historical feel.. I can Print out Scripts too.... and follow them like a guidebook, that's a prerequisite in EU2, we have about 400 years of Scripts we use, leaderfiles, historical files, our opponents files... about 200 pages worth in one game.. Kinda boring? Well, it certianly can be fun, even the random event scripts are reviewed in order to know what to do if they should arise...

But the Random events in a Historical few years war like SC2 requires an element of Historical switch in my humble opinion where one plan, one strategy. Like say Industrial Tech and Production doesn't ensure an Allied victory if it hits...

it didn't, historically

similarly, Tigers, The most Powerful UberSub Fleet maybe doesn't garauntee an Axis victory in 1940..especially if she plays like a little girl with neutral War Readiness Start Points over the map, noone knows how these countries might've reacted if it had been Sunday in Copenhagen and the President was with his Mistress whow as a German spy? Perhaps a Random ASW Event, reflects a Scientific Breakthrough Perhaps... because the Allies are research hardcore Industrial and Production Techs only, their War Readiness stales because the nation is on isolationist mode for the USA.. Stalin loses it and executes off half his Army... LOL All Viable? LOL

Which is ahistorical anyways but done?

[Gorgin]

Liam, that post doesn't make any sense at all -- at least to this reader

[Liam]

Originally posted by Gorgin:

Liam, that post doesn't make any sense at all -- at least to this reader

Gorgin, I'll break it down into layman terms

the way that things are setup, means that the game is going to go exactly this way if I do exactly this and there is a percentage chance of another thing happening

the way I am speaking about doing things which is implemented to some degree, is a level of random history. I.E. Pearl Harbor doesn't neccessarily happen, because maybe the USA War Readiness is too high due to German aggression, so IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED the way that it did at least... And etc... for about 20 - 30 other major events in game and minor ones are endless... means that we can make the game more fun by adding more random history. Random movements... Which it is to a degree but Terif can tell you above the exact MPPs he'll get for conquoring Denmark, probably down to 15-25 MPPs with Plunder of 3 years! What if I make it random Civil UnRest in Denmark or Random Plunder, Or Denmark joins the axis? What do I do to his Math and to other's who don't want to play the game but want to crunch #s?

I'm not saying taking it to that extreme but you understand now, That many of the events of history are not represented and are random in SC2 anyways it's not a 100% accurate recreation of WW2 it's made to be close, but randomness is a factor of WW2 that we're not using that would make the game funner.

We can make Small changes like Russian Readiness Triggers, change them into different sets per game randomely so you cannot use Scripts to decide the decisions to be made.

Ultimately you choose by Guts, luck, and relatively levelheaded choices.. Rather than PRECISE Math which it is now, to a degree...

[Liam]

P.S. A thought folks..

As in Europa Unversalis II which is an RTS game, you see when you sit down the feel is still a strategy/economic/political/wargame..Tactically it's less detailed than SC2 but SC2 is modelled after WW2 and that game is modelled after A time Period.

Once you slide into the cockpit you have to basically have all the events, leaders, triggers, etc... known to you or you will not perform up to par. You have to know your opponent and you are not allowed to surrender unless truly defeated we have a ban rule for weak and unreliable players.

SC2 is a learning curb you sit down and study the book and boom, you're a proffessional. CopyCat what Terif and what everyone else does, and what we would go as far as to do is make the Events invisible, random completely. Maps, Capitols, everything.. It never changes the basic feel though. And in 1 bad manuever a SuperPower can be reduced to ashes

that isn't something that can happen so easily in SC2, a smaller game, oddly. There aren't as many wild swings.. You'd have to make several bad choices to doom your country usually. Or More

You do not have time because of the RTS factor, to go back and double check scripts. To calculate everything, you have to use some gut instinct which I like about Wargames, I do not like calculations and though I've used them I was one of the Top EU2 players outta 500... Though in SC my intuitive abilities weren't as good, good decisions didn't neccessarily pay. Understanding of the Engine was essential in both

We should not know that 4 units will stop Russian Readiness by this amount. That's not historical? What is about it? That is something can be changed, Convoy Routes do not always follow the same path do they? Nations do not always surrender just because their Capitols fall. There is so much less intuitive about SC than there should be. When I sat down into my EU2 Chair, before it became Passe, I played guts and intuition and beat out guys with Scripts because I could feel right move and use a fairly decent knowledge of the game engine. Now SC is not in any way RTS on any level but still that's my point any understand

basically you're not rewarding by playing the game as much, you're rewarding by repitious math and not even being in the SC2 Multiplayer Enviroment totally different story in EU, you don't play you will suck..which is what hurts EU some...not entirely

[Sombra]

I think Lars you want to say many of the randmow events and scripts are to set?

I agree with some of what you said many events should have consequences on the other half of the war. American assets transfer in the Atlantik "carrier group" etc? before Midway..,. Good chance that the Americans would have lost this ecounter. Siberian troops on mass transfer to the west? Japanese forces could have attacked Rusia and not the US.

[jon_j_rambo]

SomeBra --- Dude, we were already outnumbered & Midway & beat the Japs in early 1942!!!!!! Our production hadn't even kicked & we whipped them at Midway!!!! How? God.

[SeaMonkey]

I know exactly what you are saying Liam, and I agree. The one thing we have that the participants in WW2 didn't have is hindsight and the gameplay environment of definitions that is SC2.

In order to simulate the unknown, although there will always be some calculated actions, we want to have a larger window of variability.

This neutralizes, for the most part, any compelling measures dictated by the game mechanics. Now we have an historical simulation of what the original combatants felt not knowing the path future actions will take.

Only problem is you will have some very ahistorical games albeit within the confines of the WW2 atmosphere.

[Desert Dave]

...we whipped them at Midway!!!! How? God.

Actually,

You seem to be swooning once again jjr,

Since that naval occasion was

A kind of "happy accident," which

Come to think on it,

Is what God IS.

As opposed to the presently supposed

Mean Old MAN,

Who chooses sides

In War or ho-humdrum daily life,

Depending on who?

Has horded the most Lucre?

LOL!

[jon_j_rambo]

There is no such thing as luck, for luck = lucifer.

[Liam]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

There is no such thing as luck, for luck = lucifer.

It was not luck, it was intel far superior to the Japanese had the Japanese known we were there, Midway could've been a disaster. Total defeat in the Pacific would have costed untold American lives, The Japanese could've made peace and signed an agreement with the USSR after Germany was defeated and D-Day may have been delayed due to fear of loss of our Pacific Possessions. Midway is a Classic we decoded your crappy Intel and we are going to make you pay for your arrogance.

[Liam]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

I know exactly what you are saying Liam, and I agree. The one thing we have that the participants in WW2 didn't have is hindsight and the gameplay environment of definitions that is SC2.

In order to simulate the unknown, although there will always be some calculated actions, we want to have a larger window of variability.

This neutralizes, for the most part, any compelling measures dictated by the game mechanics. Now we have an historical simulation of what the original combatants felt not knowing the path future actions will take.

Only problem is you will have some very ahistorical games albeit within the confines of the WW2 atmosphere.

It will be something complex to program but that is precisely the point I am trying to get across. We all feel this way because after the initial discoveries you want some more.. though SC2 is very detailed and will take a long time to Master completely.

[Agamemnon]

We should not know that 4 units will stop Russian Readiness by this amount. That's not historical? What is about it?

It's the games way of modeling the very real need to have some sort of defense in the east. If Germany had left Poland undefended it would have been very tempting to the USSR.

[Fartknock3r]

uh.. sorry terif! u kno wut i mean!