ROFLMAO Can't Hep it!

[Blashy]

Originally posted by borsook:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Desert Dave:

Same as THE greatest waste of money

I have EVER spent - in

My ENTIRE life lived thus far - 50 bucks

For... HoI.

Now I begin to understand your previous posts. HOI is probably the only WW2 grand strategy that is close to the "war simulation". No other game encompasses so many aspects of the war - military, economic, diplomatic, weather, infrastructure, leaders, doctrines, government etc. You name it - HOI has got it. But yes it does require a certain amount of patience, planning and use of intellect, so those looking for a light-weight gaming won't like it obviously. </font>

[targul]

Try CWIE it is a division scale game that provides all this. No AI but plenty of players so you dont need to but you do need about a year to complete a game unless you and the opponent both have tons of time. No game has a map as large. No game has as many units. This is a huge two or three player game.

[borsook]

One turn of that game takes forever.

Does it? there are no turns in HOI. True 1939-45 as Germany takes me about 50% more than in SC2 but it is not that big difference.

[targul]

Primary reason I do not play HOI2 is the lack of turns. I hate playing games where you are stuck competing with the computer for how long you can take. Yes you can pause it be the game just doesnt have a start and end of time periods.

When I play I am often doing many things including work so I must often alt tab and go to a window and do something.

Incoming emails could be work another game I am playing or junk that I probably dont care about. In most cases I respond to customers in seconds and return games turns as rapidly as possible. Depending on game that is 10 min to a couple hours.

Anyway with a turn based system I can perform all these tasks as soon as I complete my turn otherwise I cant concentrate on the game so it sometimes runs off while I am working.

[borsook]

Originally posted by targul:

Primary reason I do not play HOI2 is the lack of turns. I hate playing games where you are stuck competing with the computer for how long you can take. Yes you can pause it be the game just doesnt have a start and end of time periods.

Well, it kind of has time periods. The smallest amount of time in which anything concerning movement/combat can occur is an hour, and as far as economy goes it's a day (ie 24 hours). The ability to pause and issue orders and different speed settings should negate all the problems. Actually the lack of turns is bad, but rather for the AI than the player

[targul]

Sounds good on paper but when I play as I said I am often working also so with turns I complete my turn. Let the computer do its thing while I am doing something else.

Only problem I have with the system is when I receive multi games in many have different screen sizes so the alt tab can get really messed up doing that.

Wish games would stick with one size for the games so I could run multiple windows of the games I have working.

[borsook]

Originally posted by targul:

Only problem I have with the system is when I receive multi games in many have different screen sizes so the alt tab can get really messed up doing that.

Wish games would stick with one size for the games so I could run multiple windows of the games I have working. [/QB]

I've no idea what you mean by "size" of the game... screen resolution? Anyway if ALT-TAB causes some problems for you, HOI, as most 2d games, can be run in a window.

[targul]

Since I do not play HOI in human play doesnt matter. Matters for Civ III Conquests, SC2 and CEAW and Making Histroy. Different screen resolutions cannot be run at the same time. And if they can I would be interested in how it would save me alot of reboots.

[borsook]

Originally posted by targul:

Since I do not play HOI in human play doesnt matter. Matters for Civ III Conquests, SC2 and CEAW and Making Histroy. Different screen resolutions cannot be run at the same time. And if they can I would be interested in how it would save me alot of reboots.

1st - all the games you've mention run, or can be run at the same resolution i.e. 1024x768

2nd - I've no idea what you mean, you can run let's say two applications at different screen resolutions, that will be switched when you alt-tab, still window mode is better at this. Nor do I understand why you talk about reboots, does your system freeze when switching res?

[Skrivebordsgeneralen]

I might have missed out on something essential, but for the moment I find CEAW to be one of my worst purchases ever. Started a game three or four times, won't start another. SC2 is simply immensely superior.

Hexes? I couldn't care less. Although I could call myself a "seasoned" wargamer, I actually tend to prefer tiles after having played SC2.

Oil? Typical example of a good idea who turn out wrong. Seemingly, it adds a new dimension. However, in the end, it simply makes gameplay unidimensional. You didn't go for those oil wells in the Caucasus/Middle East? Too bad, game over.

Manpower? A useless detail. Germany has lost 6 million men? Well...with or without manpower, chances are they're losing the war anyway. Will probably make sence in a WW1 game like GoA, where BOTH sides (ie France and Britain vs. Germany, Austria-Hungary) could suffer from it's effects.

Hats off to Hubert Cater's game philosophy, which is genious in its simplicity: details who add nothing to gameplay should be redundant.

The new convoy system? Once again, SC2 is better. More of a guessing game. Strike, hide in the Atlantic for a couple of turns and the brits have no clue which lanes you'll be hitting next. Much more fun.

On the other hand, CEAW simplifies where SC2 is more complex - and rightly so. HQs ans paratroopers are prime examples.

SC2s HQ system, with it's combined supply wagon/combat bonus effect (one of the most innovative and interesting aspects of the game), the superior research, diplo and upgrade system, the "hit and run" combat system (which btw adds depth, because you always need to consider which units to move first) and a host of other elements add up to make SC2 the best WW2 strategy game on the market - by far.

To all those "historical" gamers out there: I simply don't understand you! The reasoning makes sence if you're playing a tactical level game, for a strategic game however, it simply doesn't collocate. Realism should not be confused with mimetism. Why would you for example want to eliminate paras just because the "scale" isn't right? They add something to the game, and that's what justifies their presence. Oil has the exact opposite effect.

Tolkien is great because the world he depicts is credible (within it's context), not because it's realist. That's what makes the strenght of his litterary work. On the other hand, Balzac (in his poorer novels) is ever the realist, but not always credible (or readable). My point is: a "realist" computer game is not necessarily the most playable.

[SeaMonkey]

Bravo Skrive, ....you get it!

......And welcome to the community.

[Guest Mike]

To all those "historical" gamers out there: I simply don't understand you! The reasoning makes sence if you're playing a tactical level game,

and yet you applaud "hit and run" tactics....??!!

your whole post is flawed IMO - I dont' know onyone here who thinks that CEAW is a better game than SC@ - including me and I was a Beta tester for CEAW.

So right off you're argunig the wrong thing.

then you're inexperience with CEAW shows - you can certainly win as the Axis without caucasian oil unless you're horribly wasteful of it - it should only come into play about mid 1944.

Realism and mime-ism?? Oh please - there was never any chance of turkey or spain joining the Axis in WW2....sorry, but them's the facts....short of invasion......which Hitler at least half contemplated vs Spain for a while!!

Manpower isn't important? Then I guess you play with unit limits off in SC2? It's essentially the same thing.

SC2 supply is better? Exactly the same as far as I can tell. convoy routes are better because you can hit and hide and hte allies won't know where you're going to hit next? Like you can't do that in CEAW?

I agree that CEAW comes up short, but not for any of the reasons you post.

[n0kn0k]

Unit limits > Manpower imho

Much more historical, and with soft build you can vary a bit, at a cost.

Ever seen an 100% russian tank army in CEAW

Makes me wanna cry.

Or that dude that had like 20 planes on the coast of France.

After playing it a few times and watching those boards a bit,

it becomes more and more clear that it's far from well thought through.

Just look at their upgrade system, easy to work with indeed.

But so wastefull with resources.

I'd love to upgrade some garrison units,

but not with all the goodies.

[jon_j_rambo]

CEAW looks rather interesting...Legend will be signing up for a copy rather soon.

[borsook]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

Unit limits > Manpower imho

Much more historical, and with soft build you can vary a bit, at a cost.

Ever seen an 100% russian tank army in CEAW

Makes me wanna cry.

Or that dude that had like 20 planes on the coast of France.

Manpower is good enough. Soft limits force historicality, but that's it - they force it. SU could have only armour divisions if they wanted. It would have been silly beyond belief. But it was possible. If a player wants to use such a bad tactic I do not see the reason for forcing him. When he loses he'll use a better approach next time.

[Guest Mike]

I agree with nookie that it's easy to get silly arms combinations in CEAW - ideally a strategy game at this level should have some industrial aspect to it as well as manpower, and that would be the limit.

SC2's system is just as flawed IMO - if you had hte industry and weren't taking the losses then you COULD build lots of armoured divisions.....which SC doesn't let you do.

[pzgndr]

SC2's system is just as flawed IMO - if you had hte industry and weren't taking the losses then you COULD build lots of armoured divisions.....which SC doesn't let you do.

Sure it does. Select the Soft Build Limits option in SC2 and you can exceed your force pool limits, but at an increased cost. Or mod the campaign to raise build limits to something you think is more reasonable. Or just raise all the limits to max and have an unrestricted game like SC.

Force pool limits in SC2 are just an abstract way of imposing reasonable manpower limits, industry limits and other stuff. Games like HOI and CEAW attempt to simulate actual manpower numbers and other resources. In theory it sounds nice, but requires its own assumptions for those numbers balanced with realistic production and loss rates. Is the additional complexity and micromanagement really better and is it worth it for fast and fun gameplay? I'm not convinced.

[targul]

Well, I have now completed 3 weeks of play CEAW. Regrettfully game is so unbalanced it is unplayable. I have just given it up.

I liked it because the Human vs Human was historical but I ran into the game having a pro Axis setup. Game is designed not based on what there was at the start of WWII but making it evenly balanced in 39.

This was okay but then they gave the Axis higher production through 41 giving them more units and higher tech. This was not balanced by anything in the game.

Regrettfully that has meant Egypt falls to the Axis every game and Russia falls in 41/42.

I only played verses human since ai is asleep.

I tried Axis won 100% of the time. I tried as Allies lost 100% of the time. Asked others and results were the same.

So if you are an Axis panzer pusher who only cares about winning that is the game to get otherwise it will require at least 2 patches to become playable.

I say 2 because the necessary fixes are not on the list for the first one so they may make the second.

[borsook]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

In theory it sounds nice, but requires its own assumptions for those numbers balanced with realistic production and loss rates. Is the additional complexity and micromanagement really better and is it worth it for fast and fun gameplay? I'm not convinced. [/QB]

What micromanagement? It's not that you have to count the losses yourself you know. I find it easier on the user to look at your manpower number than to check how many units of the said type can you build. Plus limits have one great disadvantage - they only count production not reinforcing units.

[Retributar]

"WHAT MICROMANAGEMENT?"

Good Counter-Point's 'borsook',...your explantation is also the way i view it!.

Other's view this type of understanding as 'MicroManageMent'???,...hmmm???...nough said!.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> SC2's system is just as flawed IMO - if you had hte industry and weren't taking the losses then you COULD build lots of armoured divisions.....which SC doesn't let you do.

Sure it does. Select the Soft Build Limits option in SC2 and you can exceed your force pool limits, but at an increased cost. Or mod the campaign to raise build limits to something you think is more reasonable. Or just raise all the limits to max and have an unrestricted game like SC.</font>

[targul]

My God, Making History I bought that pig. I would rate it worst wargame release of the year. I cannot find anything good about it.

Its like a sim without the sim. Its like a wargame without the wargame. Its like political, economic game without any reference to either.

There is one thing it is really like and that is a really horrible game.

[n0kn0k]

Hehe I fell for that one also. But since it was available on Steam I couldn't resist

[Desert Dave]

Back O/T:

Given added understanding,

And further review,

That other game, is now

Valued at... $1.95

Soon enough we'll be finished

Electro-gliding THROUGH

The barricades

(... these ever exist merely

in the MIND, anyhow )

And on the way!

To the city different - Santa Fe! :cool:

[Agent Smith]

Great thread people.

What's going to happen when Victor releases Advanced Tactics? The game has hexes :eek:

The screenshots at matrix look :cool:

Could this become a never ending thread of threatened 'Fanboys' endlessly bemoaning about competition.

...try remembering back about 5-10 years ago, and think about how few decent wargames were even available, and rejoice in having CHOICES.