ROFLMAO Can't Hep it!

[Blashy]

Patriotism is always supporting your country and supporting your Government when it deserves it.

- Mark Twain

That is the biggest problem with USA, they can't make the difference between the two.

[n0kn0k]

Originally posted by borsook:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@borsook --- Dude, what's with your sig? You some kind of New World Order Commie? If Shaw & you can realize that taken pride in one's country...ah, may have a reason? (See Freedom)

The sig is an attempt to come up with the only rational reason behind a person's "patriotism". Nothing in the history of this world, maybe with the exception of religion, is responsible for so much death and suffering as patriotism. </font>

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by borsook:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@borsook --- Dude, what's with your sig? You some kind of New World Order Commie? If Shaw & you can realize that taken pride in one's country...ah, may have a reason? (See Freedom)

The sig is an attempt to come up with the only rational reason behind a person's "patriotism". Nothing in the history of this world, maybe with the exception of religion, is responsible for so much death and suffering as patriotism. </font>

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Patriotism is always supporting your country and supporting your Government when it deserves it.

- Mark Twain

That is the biggest problem with USA, they can't make the difference between the two.

How would you know that, Blash Mon? :confused:

You don't live and die here.

I myself can "tell the difference."

MOST of the folks I know,

Can indeed "tell the difference."

According to the latest polls

70% of Americans

Can "tell the difference."

On and on

Under the same old (... ever lasting?) Sun,

Geee Yippeeeeee!

Ain't we got fun!

[n0kn0k]

Let's do away with ANY discussion

Of... "politics or religion." on a wargame forum

You almost got it right there DD

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

Let's do away with ANY discussion

Of... "politics or religion." on a wargame forum

You almost got it right there DD

Ah I see.

Taking my quote out of context

And adding YOUR OWN agenda/addendum, eh?

You should be working

For ANY English-speaking Mega-Corp Media!

I've got news - Xtra! Xtra!

Hear all about it!

For you... forum members have been

Bespeaking politics & religion

(... EVEN - then they didn't KNOW

that they were, RE: my post just above)

For the 5 + years I been around.

What gives?

YOU yerself gonna CHANGE all that,

All of a sudden?

HOW so, might I inquire? LOL!

[n0kn0k]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

Taking my quote out of context

And adding YOUR OWN agenda/addendum, eh?

YOU yerself gonna CHANGE all that,

All of a sudden?

HOW so, might I inquire? LOL! [/QB]

The bold text already showed that it was my own view, wasn't it?

And about changing that, it's fairly simple.

There are rules and mods on this board.

No inflammatory talk is allowed afaik.

So if there are any blessings and modern day political flames going around I'll just report them.

Something that has proven quite effective with most of Rambo's propaganda.

You should be working

For ANY English-speaking Mega-Corp Media!

I actually did that for 6 months

[Desert Dave]

Good!

That we have a rational some one

Who will keep track

Of ALL the nefarious doings

Hereabouts!

In another time & place,

Then I was a soldier, a biker,

An everyday common laborer,

This sort of attitude would be called:

Snitching.

Being... a rat-fink.

Know what I mean?

How's about you let the sleeping dogs lie?

Never know what some ol' cur will do

Once awoken out of a peaceful slumber,

So to speak.

BTW, I am hardly surprised

That you worked for the Mega-Corp Media,

It shows, it grows

Ever more apparent!

[n0kn0k]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

Good!

That we have a rational some one

Who will keep track

Of ALL the nefarious doings

Hereabouts!

Well I've been a forum mod for nearly a decade

Old habits you know.

BTW, I am hardly surprised

That you worked for the Mega-Corp Media,

It shows, it grows

Ever more apparent!

Promotional team for AMD and PC Gamer

Nothing grand like Fox with it's propaganda, much smaller.

Was running a Gaming / E-sports news website 25k registered people with a team of about 20 volunteers as newscrew.

Nice and rewarding project till they pulled the plug on it 6 months after I was gone.

Anyway, something far more interesting, and back on topic

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1489764&mpage=1&key=

[Elmo]

IBTL

[n0kn0k]

IBTL

Neh it's saturday, the mods are probably enjoying a nice cold beer

[Desert Dave]

Well I've been a forum mod for nearly a decade

Good for you, but... you ain't one NOW,

Insofar as I am aware,

So... giv it a rest, yes?

Old habits you know.

Are hard to git rid of, but,

You CAN... all ya gotta do

Is - say to yerself - I ain't actually

Gotta be any freaking snitch no more!

Promotional team for AMD and PC Gamer

Nothing grand like Fox with it's propaganda, much smaller.

Was running a Gaming / E-sports news website 25k registered people with a team of about 20 volunteers as newscrew.

Nice and rewarding project till they pulled the plug on it 6 months after I was gone.

Sh*t on a dowsing stick,

I AM impressed... I guess - ah, no,

Truth be told, I am MUCH

More impressed with... how those fellaheen

Can survive on next to - NOTHING.

Live in an over-turned refrigerator box.

Scratch at the arid land,

Sup on the cess, scrub and spoor

That emerges from sun dunned sand.

Have no interest in "rational X-planations"

About how they are situated

So awful poorly, IE,

Hey you - "Anthro-pologist!"

Leave me be, get yerself

A REAL job!

Have - superstition.

Determination.

Steel-welded sort of Soul.

Them are the kind what impresses me.

Well,

It's obvious we got two entirely

DIFFERENT ways of apprehending

This World.

That's cool,

I ken live with that. :cool:

I ain't gon go on with this,

You can have the last word,

I gots to take the Terrier Dog

For a walk in the park... being

Mighty - careful!

How I awaken that sleeping creature,

There - where he lies.

[ June 23, 2007, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[n0kn0k]

Different is good,

otherwise it would get so boring so soon.

Anyways, back to modding.

Got something nice coming up on monday,

that will impress you hopefully :cool:

[targul]

I agree in part Iron Ranger. As an Allied Player you would never get Egypt without a fight. I also try and help in Greece depending on how the sea battles have gone.

Norway is pretty much undefendable as the allies but possible I could harass Narvik in order to keep units involved. Problem here seems to be that by the time you can react to Norway Sweden is already gone since it too is a one trick pony.

Other then these and the obvious defense of France there is little the Allies can do against the Axis trotting around Europe.

My feeling is that the loot you receive from each of these ahistorical exploits adds an additional unit to the Axis due to looting. This is almost immediate and since the any globe trotting by the Allies is pretty much ahistorical I simply will not do it without just cause. Example I would not attack Ireland because the Germans attacked Switzerland. I sincerely doubt the Allies would have either. They may have attacked Ireland for other reasons but certainly not because Switzerland was attacked by there enemy.

Now if the Axis attacked Spain I would sincerely consider an attack on Portugal but instead I would probably simply send troops to support the Spainish.

Anyway I agree with some beefing up with the major minors especially Sweden which once Norway falls it is dead. Spain seems okay and I havent seen anyone attack Turkey until Turkey attacked them.

I still feel it would not stop or prohibit players from attacking nations. If the minors did not provide loot other then the city, oil and mining the whole map does I believe many players would focus on what they need to do instead of gathering all the free units.

It would make it less viable to do Globe Trotting and maybe players would instead concentrate on the missions of defeating the areas historical challenged during WWII.

[targul]

Nok why do you wish to remove the cause of all wars politics and religion from speech. It maybe contraversal but when we are discussing why Hitler, Churchill, Turman, or Stalin did this or that it is political.

I think if we eliminated discussing these two causes of wars we would not be talking on the forums much.

I would prefer to say lets speak respectfully when discussing these Hot Button Topics and not go off on our own believes and stick with the points as they are within the game. Try and temper your words with wisdom and not individual idealogy and they should be fine.

[targul]

I disagree with George Bernard Shaw. Patriotism is the love of your country above all other countries.

Soldiers (at least me) did not go to war because they felt superior to anyone. They go to war to defend there country. Even though the war maybe ill concieved the soldier is not a political man he is a man willing to scrafice to make things better and safer for his family and country.

So Mr Shaw to your statement I say Bah Humbug!!!

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by targul:

Simply because the game allows ahistorical play doesnt make it correct. There must be consequences that were concievable at the time. Not well Joe did so I did it too.

Thanks for the feedback targul and I just wanted to give a slightly better follow up as I have a few free moments.

What we tried to do with SC2 was take into account as many variations of game play as possible and couple this with penalties/consequences that in the end force the player to strike a balance between strategy vs. penalty all within a historical context... well as close as possible

For example an overly aggressive Axis player prior to US and Soviet entry is penalized by an increase in US/Soviet activation and as a result this can cause these countries to enter early and/or have an increase in available MPP (and in turn increased production etc.) during their neutrality that usually counterbalances the earlier Axis gains.

Granted after the US and Soviet Union enter the war these types of penalties no longer apply but there are of course other considerations. Using Sweden for example, an Axis player may invade Sweden but this has to balanced out with the cost of invasion, i.e. Amphibious Transport in and Transport or Operational Movement out, plus replacement of combat losses for any plundering gains. In terms of extra MPP after invasion in most cases this is non-existant as this was taken into account via the convoy system, i.e. an Axis occupied Sweden does not give the Axis player any more MPP than what he would normally gain through convoy. If you connect Sweden to Germany via Finland you will increase the convoy slightly but only 60% of 80% efficiency rather than 60% of 50% efficiency so again the pros vs. cons need to be weighed out.

For countries like Spain, while Germany never did invade historically there were many reasons why it may have wanted to and mostly to simply get at Gibraltar. For SC2 WaW we have beefed up Spain just slightly to make it a bit more difficult for the Axis player but I think the option to leave it there is still preferable.

There are suggestions to throw certain countries automatically into the opposing players camp and it is something I am thinking about but even here we need to be careful. Using the Portual example, is it a good idea to always throw Spain towards the Axis 100% if the Allies invade Lisbon? Maybe yes, maybe no but as a result it might limit these types of strategies if players know what will happen, exactly mind you, each time they try a particular manouver. If on the other hand Spain will join 50% of the time what is stopping someone from repeating the invasion until they get the favourable result? The system I would lean towards is to simply increase the activation the right amount that perhaps further diplomacy is all that is needed to throw a country one way or the other.

In the end who is to say really what is exactly historical and what is not, sure there are extremes but for example in the real war Germany didn' have to invade Sweden, but perhaps in game there might be a reason to, i.e. Allies successfully pre-empt Norway leaving the Axis little choice in order to protect their convoys.

I agree in some cases there might be extremes during gameplay (we are working on these) but I will defer to Terif (the master himself) and others that indicate this usually happens because an opponent is able to take advantage of certain weaknesses due to how the game has played out, i.e. if they were too busy battling in Russia or North Afrika then perhaps they wouldn't be able to have side adventures outside of the usual historical path.

As mentioned before, is the system perfect? Probably never will be but rest assured we've taken much of this sort of criticism into account and are fairly confident the current system is much more preferable to a strict limitation of what you can and cannot do.

In general one way to do it is via historical timelines and completely historical alliances, but if the game play has varied slightly from what actually happened in history then in my opinion so too, very carefully though, should the timeline and/or the alliances

What SC2 provides is a pretty dynamic set of circumstances for game play with pros and cons for almost every move and strategic decision and with SC2 WaW it will only get better

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

Just wanted to add while I can appreciate healthy debates, can everyone, and I mean everyone , leave the political and religious stuff out of this forum. Please no more anti-USA, pro-USA, anti-Europe, pro-Europe or whatever, has no place here and never will. Take it outside

[borsook]

Is there a chance that we will see in the upcoming expansion something like military access? I.e. if you "sign" it with a country it does not join your alliance but you can move troops through it's territory.

[Hubert Cater]

borsook, interesting idea but unfortunately probably not for initial release... once things settle down a bit I can think about adding in more features as needed.

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by targul:

I would prefer to say lets speak respectfully when discussing these Hot Button Topics and not go off on our own believes and stick with the points as they are within the game. Try and temper your words with wisdom and not individual idealogy and they should be fine. [/QB]

targul, this would be ideal and I think everyone would very much enjoy debates such as these, especially within the context of the game... I think the problem is it usually quickly deteriorates into unpleasantries and that is when I usually step in to try and remind everyone why we are all here.

As you point out and as I've often mentioned before, if it is kept civilized there is never any issue.

[targul]

Hurbert thanks for you kind responses.

Your beefed up Spain seems adequate. The Axis doesnt seem to go at it haphassardly but Sweden is another matter entirely. Once Norway is occupied transport is cheap enough to support a large contingent in Norway and then an attack without Amph and the capture of Sweden in a maximum of two turns.

As I have said I do not think it bad to allow invasions anywhere the Axis or Allies go but there must be consequenses. Maybe when the Axis invades a Pro Axis nation the other pro axis minors wonder if they are next. ie lower slightly the diplomacy of Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania when Sweden is invaded. Even if only 5 points it means using diplomacy to keep everyone in line.

Allies invading Portugal would I am certain have scared the hell out of Spain. So I would up there diplomacy by 50 points if Portugal is invaded. This would not guarantee Spain joining the Axis but would make the diplomacy much more critical for both sides.

As to your AI it is wonderful. Performs above all my expectations. Gives a great historical game.

Two small items though with the AI. It very rarely invades Algeria and in about the 2 dozens games I have played against it so far only once did it invade Italy. I appears if the AI has not captured Tipolli by mid 42 that it ignores the med and invades either Portugal or France. There maybe good reason the AI acts this way but I do miss my Italian campaign and the battles in Africa.

If that date where the AI appears to be redirect its movement could be moved to late 42 with an invasion of Algeria planned in mid 42 it would perform more in line.

Russia is the other area that lacks enough power. The units perform well but Leeningrad falls too easily and the Russians just start to fall apart. I suggest the square next to the port be fortified with an army in place to beef that up which will make it much harder to take Lenningrad.

[Iron Ranger]

Targul: other then scripts ect... try using the Railhead feature. Slow's the star trek telopoting of troops down alot and gives the game a move histoical flow.

[Hubert Cater]

targul, not sure why players seem so interested in Sweden as mentioned before it does not generally give you much benefit as the collected MPP is the same occupied or not but we do have a few scripts in place that affect the US, Finland and Switzerland (I believe).

As I have said I do not think it bad to allow invasions anywhere the Axis or Allies go but there must be consequenses. Maybe when the Axis invades a Pro Axis nation the other pro axis minors wonder if they are next. ie lower slightly the diplomacy of Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania when Sweden is invaded. Even if only 5 points it means using diplomacy to keep everyone in line.

Actually this is already in place for many of the minors, i.e. if you invade Spain as Axis it will have a negative effect on Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania as you've mentioned. Often it is just the timing, i.e. some players will wait until these 3 are on board and/or the US is in and then go for Spain. At that point it is difficult to impose a penalty but there are some things you can do like beefing up Spain just slightly as previously mentioned.

Allies invading Portugal would I am certain have scared the hell out of Spain. So I would up there diplomacy by 50 points if Portugal is invaded. This would not guarantee Spain joining the Axis but would make the diplomacy much more critical for both sides.

I agree and that is probably the best solution. At the moment I am asking the testers to give me exactly this kind of feedback so we can adjust the problem areas as needed

As to your AI it is wonderful. Performs above all my expectations. Gives a great historical game.

Thank you and I'm positive you will even enjoy the next one more as I've made a few key improvements and not to mention script adjustments that have so far greatly enhanced the AI experience in SC2 WaW... well that is what the testers keep telling me and I'm inclined to believe them

Two small items though with the AI. It very rarely invades Algeria and in about the 2 dozens games I have played against it so far only once did it invade Italy. I appears if the AI has not captured Tipolli by mid 42 that it ignores the med and invades either Portugal or France. There maybe good reason the AI acts this way but I do miss my Italian campaign and the battles in Africa.

If that date where the AI appears to be redirect its movement could be moved to late 42 with an invasion of Algeria planned in mid 42 it would perform more in line.

Russia is the other area that lacks enough power. The units perform well but Leeningrad falls too easily and the Russians just start to fall apart. I suggest the square next to the port be fortified with an army in place to beef that up which will make it much harder to take Lenningrad.

Thanks and good points... I've addressed some of this already and will continue to make adjustments as even testing has brought up some similar areas.

[Guest Mike]

If anyoine invades Spain portugal should probably join the other side straight away - not that would necessarily have done so in real life, but it gives a bit of balance IMO - it gives the allies a port on the Atlantic, and if forces the allies to take a bit of time to take Lisbon.....which they will probably do sooner or later anyway......

Also the Spanish should have some mean partisans!