Tiles / Hexes

[KDG]

OMG! i cant believe im reading this! I hope you dont carry the official voice of battlefront.com as the signature implies. Is this the official stand and attitude that battlefront has towards the people that says things that they dont like? A game developer that seems to talk in negative, direspectful phrases towards the part of their customers that want to speak about what they want from the game? People that have spent maybe hundreds of hours playing their game and wants to say something about how they think it should be in the next version?

In a forum such as this, programmers, publishers, etc. should be able to speak their mind just as we do. We criticize, why not them. Opinion, fact, likes and dislikes, its all here.

Beeing "an arrogant customer" i have to say that this tops everything i have read in any forum for years. I am dead serious. You are certainly not "da man" when it comes to understanding people and customer relations.

This is pretty tame compared to some forums that are out there. A forum like this is different than customer service, its for the flowing of all ideas, responses, etc., from all parties involved.

Major wake-up call (like a air compressor horn or something) -

This anti-crowd of yours only exists in your own head. It is probably something you have developed over the years to cope with the people that you need to classify as morons in your version of how the world should be runned. You need to seriously think about why it is that you have this urge to jump those who dont share your opinion. We are all individuals in this forum and there is no conspiracy against you or any other company that wants to renew their smelly game or whatever. There are just personal opinions.

Please, have you looked at society. Its impossible to make everyone happy, there is always someone complaining about something.

Most peoples minds can't be changed on most subjects. Its a fact of life.

Some people chose to use emotion and opinion when debating, others like Exel chose to give examples and back things up with reasons why they have an opinion. Big difference.

[Moon]

Nothing can be debated more hotly than viewpoints which are nearly equal, but pointing in opposite directions. This alone shows me that there is no real advantage between hexes and tiles. Wait, there might be one - people are more used to hexes?

Holyman, I won't answer for Steve, he can speak for himself, or decide for himself that he won't reply. But I tell you - if I were him, I'd do the latter.

Somebody who says stuff like

"According to me..." (heh? A classic way to legitimate and "enlarge" your own opinion, taken to the extreme, so that it becomes bizarre), or

"I don't like change that is uncalled for and I don't want" (Big surprise, I don't like stuff I don't want usually as well. But - why is it uncalled for? Because you don't want it?), or

"It is clearly so that more wargamers can live with hexes than those that can live with tiles." (according to... you?)

...is pretty much useless to debate. This doesn't mean that you're not entitled to your opinion. You are. And you did state what that was, in the forums that we have made for exactly this purpose. We noted your opinion, too, and we stated our views. And we just happen to disagree.

Are you not used to people, yes, even game designers disagreeing with you? Sorry to hear that. Thank God we have the balls to sometimes disagree even with the *majority* of PC players, because if not, you'd be playing SC-the Real Time Strategy game right now.

Martin

[KDG]

"SC-the Real Time Strategy game right now."

Any chance we will see this next year?

[Jim Boggs]

Holyman

Your name isn't Lewis is it?

Let's check the Numbers!

Okay on this side we got:

1) Hubert Cater-One game published (SC), one game total success. 100%

2) BFC-Three Games published (CMBO, CMBB, CMAK), three games total successes. 100%

Okay, on the other side:

Holyman-No games published, no games success. 0%

Hmmmm.....

[J P Wagner]

This poor horse has been beaten into a can of SPAM...As has been suggested by more than one person here, let's wait until the demo is out before passing judgement....there will be other options for gamers on the Strategic WWII front in the near future and so it will be interesting to make comparisons when the time arises....for now though, the idea of an editor for the game is one of the most exciting features that I am drooling for...if the editor has the potential to do what some here are presuming it could, and having a tile based map makes using the editor easier, than I will gladly accept the change....the demo will be free, so we'll all be able to make more sound decisions about the gameplay then with only the investment of time...

[ April 21, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[Capt Andrew]

Long time lurker, but this thread actually forced me to register and post.

I discovered Battlefront by word of mouth, because a friend really enjoyed CMBB. I didn't care for it, but when I noticed the hex based SC1, I immediately downloaded the demo. It took me two days to order it...only because I couldn't stop playing the demo!

SC1 has been one of the most enjoyable games I have ever purchased. It brought back memories of WaW, 3R, SL, etc. I loved the hex based "board game" and simplicity. At least six friends also bought the game, and we continue to spam PBEM files back and forth.

I was EXTREMELY excited to see Moon's announcement about SC2. And all I could say when I saw the preview was WOW. Amazing graphics (yeah, I also could care less...but it sure didn't hurt!!), a bigger map (yes!)...and what's this???!!! Nearly every single suggestion the SC community suggested had been implemented! OMG! I thought, man, Hubert has been lurking here as much as I have! I was STUNNED to see so much gaming community input actually implemented!

That being said, I am a bit embarrassed of some of my fellow gamers comments, both at Steve and HC. HC made an AMAZING game with SC1. Period. And Steve put it out there for us in a way I appreciated (pass savings on to customers by nixing the fancy packaging, etc). Neither of these guys should be second guessed, period. That doesn't mean you can't have opinions, or express them in this forum. But you are on their turf, so try to be respectful, and mindful that they read these posts. They've proved that by giving us just a GLIMPSE SC2, that they have listened to their customers.

So the biggest gripes are hex based and top down issues. Okay. Yeah, I want that too. Its just ONE of the reasons I loved SC1. HC has already said in another post that a top down view may be an option for SC2(kinda like an XP to traditional 95/98 feature). Great. Tiles?????? Too bad. But you know, I'm giving Battlefront the benefit of the doubt. Sure I'm disappointed that hexes aren't being used, but who can honestly say they haven't already imagined how that is really going to change the whole Barbarossa campaign!

I think we all need to remember how we felt when we read the SC2 announcement. If you were jazzed about all the new features that have been implemented, then you need to move on past the hex issue. If the first thing you REALLY thought was, "TILES? WTF!", then maybe SC2 is not for you. Feel free to let Battlefront know, as they have demonstrated that they actually do care what you want. If you've already voiced your disappointment, there's no need to do it again. It's been heard ad nauseum. Just be thankful for a fantastic SC1.

As for me, I'll only be playing the demo as I wait for my full version to arrive in the mail - despite hexes/tiles. Carry on HC and Steve, as you were.

[ April 21, 2004, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Capt Andrew ]

[Kuniworth]

Man I can't believe it, a topic without me beeing pounced at

To all;

Beeing a politician I just wanna say I'm actually happy with the intense discussion. The strategic command community stands strong and it's obvious that there is many people thyat want this game to succeed. So I'm glad you all debate and discuss ideas.

Keep up the debate guys and remember to give constructive ideas to mr H.

[Dan Fenton]

I have had a great deal of fun while playing Alpha Centari and Civilizaton III. Both are tile based games. Frankly, I really did not even notice that much of a difference between playing a tile based game and a hex based game. It is the quality of the game that matters, not hexes or tiles.

My opinion is that Hubert is a gifted game designer. If he believes that tiles are better than hexes, then they probably are better for this situation. I will buy this game!

By the way, thanks Hubert for supporting a 1280 by 1024 display. It will make my 17-inch LCD monitor very happy.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Dan Fenton:

If he believes that tiles are better than hexes, then they probably are better for this situation. I will buy this game!

Hey Dan, I'm pretty sure all debating will buy the game hence the big arguement about tiles vs hexes. People like to get a maximum out of the money to spend.

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the follow ups, especially to first time poster Capt Andrew for breaking his Lurker status. It is sad when an otherwise dedicated gamer loses perspective and goes off the deep end. No paranoia on my part... I've seen dozens of people destroy their own credibility in the same way. Sorry it most often happens in public where everybody has to bare witness to it.

Whether you like tiles or believe that hexes are sanctioned by God and to use otherwise risks burning in Hell, I don't really care. But start forgetting basic manners and simple respect for the very persons responsible for making the games and environment that has brought us together... well, that is something that needs addressing. We've found from past experience that sometimes a good "spanking" is necessary to end the childish behavior and get things back on a productive track. With that in mind...

Now that it is clear to all that SC2 will be tile based, hopefully those who disagree can be polite and respectful enough to withhold judgement until they have at least played the demo. Afterall, is there any other way to know if a GAME is good than to actually play it? I know of no other way.

In the mean time I would suggest that the pro-hex crowd refocus their energy into discussing ways to overcome some of the mistakes other game developers have made with tile based systems. After all, any system, be it hex or tile, has its limitations and potential pitfalls. Constructive discussion might be helpful to Hubert. Telling him he has broken the Hardcore's 1st Commandment "Tho Shall Not Use Tiles" really isn't

Steve

[Exel]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

In the mean time I would suggest that the pro-hex crowd refocus their energy into discussing ways to overcome some of the mistakes other game developers have made with tile based systems. After all, any system, be it hex or tile, has its limitations and potential pitfalls.

I've been doing this all along, in this thread and others. It was while studying the effects of tiles when I concluded that hexes would be my choice for the game, but let's not return to that... Anyway, I'm going to keep digging and tossing in suggestions for how to overcome some of the problems that tiles may bring with them. After all, since tiles are the way Hubert has decided to take, it would be in all of our best interest to see the tile-system perfected as far as possible.

Now, one major problem that should be addressed is, as already mentioned, the effect that comes up if a bulge or wedge of any size is formed to an otherwise straight front line; the lead unit will potentially get hammered by up to 6 enemy units. I'm not going to repeat my view of the realism of the situation, but this is a potential game-killer if it's not carefully investigated. Or does Hubert already have a solution for the issue?

[Holyman]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

Holyman

Your name isn't Lewis is it?

Let's check the Numbers!

Okay on this side we got:

1) Hubert Cater-One game published (SC), one game total success. 100%

2) BFC-Three Games published (CMBO, CMBB, CMAK), three games total successes. 100%

Okay, on the other side:

Holyman-No games published, no games success. 0%

Hmmmm.....

OK, i get the message... then only experienced game designers should be allowed to speak in here. Are you one of those ?

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Holyman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

Holyman

Your name isn't Lewis is it?

Let's check the Numbers!

Okay on this side we got:

1) Hubert Cater-One game published (SC), one game total success. 100%

2) BFC-Three Games published (CMBO, CMBB, CMAK), three games total successes. 100%

Okay, on the other side:

Holyman-No games published, no games success. 0%

Hmmmm.....

OK, i get the message... then only experienced game designers should be allowed to speak in here. Are you one of those ? </font>

[Holyman]

Originally posted by KDG:

In a forum such as this, programmers, publishers, etc. should be able to speak their mind just as we do. We criticize, why not them. Opinion, fact, likes and dislikes, its all here.

I was just kinda shocked to get that from BATTLEFRONT.COM, as Steve in this case uses the official stamp of this company to tell me that i am something "they" disrespect and couldn't care less about. I am one of those monsters that eats good game designs for breakfast and ****s them out in hexes.

[KDG]

Now, one major problem that should be addressed is, as already mentioned, the effect that comes up if a bulge or wedge of any size is formed to an otherwise straight front line; the lead unit will potentially get hammered by up to 6 enemy units. I'm not going to repeat my view of the realism of the situation, but this is a potential game-killer if it's not carefully investigated. Or does Hubert already have a solution for the issue?

OK, lets look at this comparing old way and new way.

SC2 - 6 units hit 1 unit, destroying it with no need for air support.

SC1 - 3 units hit 1 unit, then 2 jets finish it off

So there was no need for air in SC2 in this situation, but then again, it used up 3 extra ground units that could have been used on another attack. In SC1, the unit gets killed, using less ground units, but needing air support.

I think I prefer SC2 because you can't strike as quickly in multiple areas like you could with the aid of jets(due to their long attack range). Its easier to have 3 sets of 3 units attack in 3 different areas in SC1(with the aid of 6 jets) than is it to bring 3 sets of 6 units to 3 different areas, in my opinion.

Oh, and by the way, wouldn't it be 5 attacks. One from the front, two from the sides, and two from the diagonals?

[Holyman]

Originally posted by Moon:

Nothing can be debated more hotly than viewpoints which are nearly equal, but pointing in opposite directions. This alone shows me that there is no real advantage between hexes and tiles. Wait, there might be one - people are more used to hexes?

Holyman, I won't answer for Steve, he can speak for himself, or decide for himself that he won't reply. But I tell you - if I were him, I'd do the latter.

Somebody who says stuff like

"According to me..." (heh? A classic way to legitimate and "enlarge" your own opinion, taken to the extreme, so that it becomes bizarre), or

"I don't like change that is uncalled for and I don't want" (Big surprise, I don't like stuff I don't want usually as well. But - why is it uncalled for? Because you don't want it?), or

"It is clearly so that more wargamers can live with hexes than those that can live with tiles." (according to... you?)

...is pretty much useless to debate. This doesn't mean that you're not entitled to your opinion. You are. And you did state what that was, in the forums that we have made for exactly this purpose. We noted your opinion, too, and we stated our views. And we just happen to disagree.

Are you not used to people, yes, even game designers disagreeing with you? Sorry to hear that. Thank God we have the balls to sometimes disagree even with the *majority* of PC players, because if not, you'd be playing SC-the Real Time Strategy game right now.

Martin

Well, Martin,

First of all thanks for choosing to use another name than BATTLEFRONT.COM. It feels kinda nice to talk to someone on the same level. So ill have alot easier to respect what you have to say to me. I guess you have taken a minimum crascourse in psycology

Secondly:

The answer to your questions is in your quotes of me as well as Steves quotes. I speak TO everyone. I tried to raise MY issues with this game. (ok i used some generalisations to get there but i dont call people members of secret anti-crowd organisations at least cause that was the MOTHER of generalisations). What i expect from a company "official" is arguments and explanations. What i dont expect is my messages broken down by massive quoting and each line stamped on by someone that seems to have built up a pressure for some time.

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Holyman:

What i dont expect is my messages broken down by massive quoting and each line stamped on by someone that seems to have built up a pressure for some time.

*Pats Holyman on head*

Here have a cookie!

[Holyman]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Thanks for the follow ups, especially to first time poster Capt Andrew for breaking his Lurker status. It is sad when an otherwise dedicated gamer loses perspective and goes off the deep end. No paranoia on my part... I've seen dozens of people destroy their own credibility in the same way. Sorry it most often happens in public where everybody has to bare witness to it.

Whether you like tiles or believe that hexes are sanctioned by God and to use otherwise risks burning in Hell, I don't really care. But start forgetting basic manners and simple respect for the very persons responsible for making the games and environment that has brought us together... well, that is something that needs addressing. We've found from past experience that sometimes a good "spanking" is necessary to end the childish behavior and get things back on a productive track. With that in mind...

Now that it is clear to all that SC2 will be tile based, hopefully those who disagree can be polite and respectful enough to withhold judgement until they have at least played the demo. Afterall, is there any other way to know if a GAME is good than to actually play it? I know of no other way.

In the mean time I would suggest that the pro-hex crowd refocus their energy into discussing ways to overcome some of the mistakes other game developers have made with tile based systems. After all, any system, be it hex or tile, has its limitations and potential pitfalls. Constructive discussion might be helpful to Hubert. Telling him he has broken the Hardcore's 1st Commandment "Tho Shall Not Use Tiles" really isn't

Steve

Mr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde must have been on Sci-Fi channel last night...

Lets just say that this thread turned out like North Corea since you spoke out loud.

I can always change my nick or just buzz outa here, but you will still be "Steve@Battlefront.com" so i for sure understand that you try to restore your own credibility around here with that little speach...

"Dont speak directly to him - lets make a speach and talk to the others about him so that i can show off my official battlefront status once more".

bye

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Holyman:

bye

*Shrugs*

I don't get it. I thought everybody liked Oreos. Oh well...

[gunnergoz]

Funny, I always labored under the assumption that BFC, Steve included, owned these forums and so could deal with them as they liked...and so far, I have no complaints. How odd to be taken to task for how you run your own house by someone who is essentially a guest in it.

[Holyman]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Holyman:

bye

*Shrugs*

I don't get it. I thought everybody liked Oreos. Oh well... </font>

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Holyman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Holyman:

bye

*Shrugs*

I don't get it. I thought everybody liked Oreos. Oh well... </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Holyman:

I am one of those monsters that eats good game designs for breakfast and ****s them out in hexes.

Ouch, that's two more sharp points than squares...

[Holyman]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Holyman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Holyman:

bye

*Shrugs*

I don't get it. I thought everybody liked Oreos. Oh well... </font>

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Holyman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Holyman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Holyman:

bye

*Shrugs*

I don't get it. I thought everybody liked Oreos. Oh well... </font>