american armed forces

[arado234]

How come america has such a small army?They built of 40,000 shermans alone.If we want realiism lets make america the industrial monster she really was.Why do so many dows by germany raise americas readiness?If pearl harbour didnt happen who knows when america or what would have triggerd americas entry into the war?

[ChrisND]

One word: Balance.

[jon_j_rambo]

Agreed.

[Guest Mike]

And of those 40,000 Shermans 5,500 went to the USSR, ?? went to the UK, Commonwealth and other countries, some were converted to other uses, and some were not delivered until the war was over.

Edit - it was closer to 50,000, and the British received 17,000 of them, and only 4100 to the Sov's......

[ January 08, 2007, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organist ]

[arado234]

I agree with you guys but some people want hisrorical realism.Maybe there could be script where you could have that.

[Night]

Dude you don't realize that the figure of 40 or 50k tanks is during the entire war... not when America entered. You have to build your own stuff and you can come pretty close to realistic numbers when compared to other nations in-game.

[Moonslayer]

Use the editor... make the mod... stick it on CMMODs for us all to enjoy

[Minty]

Doesn't this debate come up about every 2 or 3 months or so?

Someone says why can America only have a brigade of boyscouts in the game? (or points out that the RN should have 25 cruisers and 12 battleships or America should have 26 Zillion Aircraft)

Then someone else says because if the production was realistic the Axis wouldn't have a chance.

Then a bigger debate starts about "No if the Axis had made better decisions they could have secured their aims with a smaller army"

Someone else says that Production is the be and end all. Then other historical examples are used to prove and disprove this and say why the Allies did win / Axis lost.

Someone will then post the following words "In one word: Oil"

then it will kick off into a debate about the Iraq war now. Then the whole Topic will have to be shut down by Hubert as Rambo takes on all challengers.

Sigh.

Normal dude has it spot on. Want realism then go and watch the History Channel.

[n0kn0k]

<3 Minty

You saved me 10 pages of reading again

[arado234]

Ok ok i get the point.

[Retributar]

Balance is required here because, not all National Armies had the same Drive or Purpose in their Psyke', 'Some were more Motivated than other's'.

Not all Military Equipment was of the same quality, so one Army from one country would not be the exact same equal of an Army from another country. Also the way that Equipment is Utilized or Deployed make's a difference too!. Example: the French had better tank's than the German's did, but the French dispersed their tank's piecemeal verse's where the German's concentrated their's. Concentration of these forces was the winner in this contest!,...not the Dispersal of these asset's!.

Not every country had the same access to strategic materials or had equal Industrial Capacity, as well as other factor's that i can't think of right now!.

Some try to make all thing's equal for everybody, then say that this...[The Production Number's Game] alone make's the game realistic & balanced!. I say 'Horse-Puckies'!. All the various factor's need to be wieghed in order to balance a game, otherwise, it will not be realistic in any sense and is then a game of pure fiction!.

[ January 08, 2007, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Night:

Dude you don't realize that the figure of 40 or 50k tanks is during the entire war... not when America entered. You have to build your own stuff and you can come pretty close to realistic numbers when compared to other nations in-game.

Good points all around and Night also brings up a good point in that the US did not start the War with very significant numbers, IIRC in game and relative to other countries in terms of units the US starts out stronger than they did historically.

The general idea is to build up the US in terms of Units as well as Research and by the end of the War you can usually get pretty close to historical output when compared to other countries, i.e. the balance I tried to set out in the game.

Also, consider US production in SC2 approximately half of its total considering the Pacific Theatre is not modelled in this game.

[TaoJah]

IMHO history is a slippery slope. Where do you end it and where does balance begins ?

The US, USSR, Germany, UK made x armies, y tanks z airplanes, so why bother give the player a choice ? Let's be historical and just put all the units in the production queue at start-up...

Rommel lost in Africa, so why don't we make it impossible for a player to take Egypt ? Hey, it would be historical !

To take it further : historically Germany lost, so now what... Germany has to loose every time because else it's "not historical" ?

They did a D-Day in Normandy, so let's be historical all the time... The Germans didn't react well to D-Day at the start, so let's be historical all the time... Malta stayed Allied, so...

In short : this is a game so you have to put in balance.

To put it a bit more provovative : "If you want it to be historical, read a book".

[Desert Dave]

A mite cynical TJ,

And too,

A lot provocative.

The US, USSR, Germany, UK made x armies, y tanks z airplanes, so why bother give the player a choice ? Let's be historical and just put all the units in the production queue at start-up...

A good mix might be half and half.

Half you choose,

Half provided on P/Q.

As is,

You've got more latitude than

There does exist from

Arctic to Antarctic.

Rommel lost in Africa, so why don't we make it impossible for a player to take Egypt ? Hey, it would be historical !

Yep, it would.

Many games make it VERY difficult

For Axis to take out Eygpt,

Just as it SHOULD be.

As for instance, Third Reich

The board-game, where

You are only allowed so many strength points

In North Afrika,

IF you've not taken out Malta.

"Malta Effect" implemented to partly

Replicate that.

There are other ways as well

Using combination of Event/AI scripting.

In short : this is a game so you have to put in balance.

I've played EVERY single WW-2 GS game,

Board or Pixel,

And, IMHO, Hubert is WELL within

The "norm" on OOB's

Start to finish,

Alpha to Omega.

To put it a bit more provovative : "If you want it to be historical, read a book".

Nonsense.

Any WW-2 GS game worth it's Gestalt & salt

Has combination of 3 essential things:

1) FUN to play, no matter how you gotta

finagle it.

Map not QUITE as per 1939 World Atlas?

So what.

You can have USA the size of a mustard seed

Or,

Covering half the screen area,

Clear over to Los Alamos, NM

(... side note... used to drive a truck

and off-loaded deliveries to that place, yea, it

were... eerie and unsettling... musta been

the "aura" of... I am Ecce Homo NOW!

Destroyer of my one and only World, LOLOLOL!)

Anyway, don't matter a whit

How you might "draw & paint" the game-board.

2) AESTHETICLY pleasing, IE, decent graphics

and in-game "enchantments" and variablility.

It's PROVEN through decades of research

That EVERYONE is "attracted" to, and by

Symmetry, and an apt, ah,

Enrapturing sort of colour palette.

3) Adheres to what I like to call

Yer basic... "Historical imperatives"

Not strictly,

And yet, EXACTLY enough so

That there is not as much ram-around,

Flim-flammable

Scam shambling

With 'em gamey exploits

And "literal impossiblities"

Such as taking out Low Countries

In 1939.

Or,

EITHER side invading French NA Colonies

Until USA did it in November 1942.

Well,

There are PLENTY of "modders" out there,

More every day!

Insofar as I can tell,

Who change OOB's and schematics

And what-else besides!

So to suit

How they MOST prefer it.

NEVER been ANY Editor such as the one

Hubert has provided,

Has there? :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

Got my vote DD, hard to deny the cold shower of reality!

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

A mite cynical TJ,

And too,

A lot provocative.

Well, this discussion comes back every month, so somewhere between the 7th and the 8th time saying this, I kinda stopped being diplomatic.

But I guess I was a bit over the line. I'll just refrain from making the same point next month. And the next month. And the next month. And...

[arado234]

I didnt know all those things you guys are talking about were factored in.I apologise.

[SeaMonkey]

Its alright guys, no need to be humbled, we've all been there and you never can tell the next month when it comes around again maybe it will conjure up some different philosophy, comments, like this one just did.

Just suppose, that USSR had signed an armistice and UK was barely holding on with Germany and Italy completely dominant in 1942.

Now somehow the USA sees its calling, recognizes the threat and addresses the obligation with all its industrial might and citizenry sacrifice it can muster. Would it be substantially greater than the historical level?

What really was the USA capable of? What was the point at which exhaustion would've set in?

Imagine also, that all the resources into the nuclear capabality were redirected into conventional weaponry.

Define the limit of that titanic effort?

[ January 09, 2007, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Desert Dave]

Its alright guys, no need to be humbled, we've all been there and you never can tell the next month when it comes around again maybe it will conjure up some different philosophy, comments, like this one just did.

Very true Brad,

Not a thing WRONG with re-visiting old ideas,

Since... things change.

Gotta keep up,

Here, out there, in yer community or home, and

Not merely with patches,

But WRT each our own "modified Gestalt,"

As we see how the many great games play out,

Either HvsH or Solo,

Each EQUALLY important.

Best evidence... your OWN evolving commentaries

Which,

As with ALL the rest of the members,

Are VITAL in order to INSURE

A dynamic and greatly evolved game.

In actual exacto-fact - YOU - all,

ARE the new! Beta Testers!

Well, this discussion comes back every month, so somewhere between the 7th and the 8th time saying this, I kinda stopped being diplomatic.

No need to STIFLE yer intuitive,

Gut-feelings and honest,

True-to-Self comments and suggestions TJ.

As with Retributar, Normal Dude, Moonslayer

And many others,

You - and they, have X-traordinarily

Original,

WW-2 enthused,

Entertaining

(... wouldn't even BE a Forum unless

all sorts of stuff - game related, O/T,

or personal jump & jive, was IN there, true? :cool: )

And VERY well informed

Perspective on this whole... shebang!!

Keep 'em fresh ideas coming! :cool:

[ January 10, 2007, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Desert Dave]

I've played EVERY single WW-2 GS game,

Board or Pixel,

Ack!

My own words - once again!

Coming back to haunt me!

Didn't play GG's WaW,

Though I did look 'er over real good,

Same as I NOW check in

On progress of ANY new! WW-2 GS game,

As with Commander - Europe @ War,

And concluded... an inane,

Simplistic rip-off of the VERY worst

Aspects of "Axis & Allies."

WHAT a piece of exploitive

And copy-cat bunch of JUNK

THAT thing is!

LOL, I'd LITERALLY be ashamed to even

Have it on my VERY extensive

Game shelf. :eek:

[SeaMonkey]

Dave don't forget to check out Muzzy Lane's Making History.

I believe the game is "The Calm and the Storm".

I've played the tutorial and I must say, innovative, interesting, needs some polish, but what a potential it represents.

It might be in the same category, as far as innovation is concerned, as the Airborne Assault series from Panther.

[jon_j_rambo]

This dude was in the Army. He helped Gerry after the war & before Reagan proclaimed,"Mr. Gorby, tear down this wall!". You ain't nothing but a hound dog.

[ January 10, 2007, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[jon_j_rambo]

One of the most decorated American combat soldiers in history. He enlisted in the US Army at age 17 for service in World War II. Received battlefield promotions while capturing more medals than any other US soldier, including the Congressional Medal of Honor. Following the war, he turned to acting in movies, starring in the story of his life , "To Hell And Back."

He died in an airplane crash in Virginia while on a business trip and was interred in Section 46 at Arlington, a site overlooking the Tomb of the Unknowns.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MURPHY, AUDIE L.

Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B 1 5th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Holtzwihr France, 26 January 1945. Entered service at: Dallas, Texas. Birth: Hunt County, near Kingston, Texas. G.O. No.. 65, 9 August 1945.

Citation:

2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machinegun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's

[Yogi]

Enjoyed the post Rambo,

I also remember watching "To Hell and Back" on TV as a kid. In addition to a number of other Audie Murphy B Movie westerns.

[Retributar]

When one is younger, especially then,...such deed's are more likely to happen than at any other time in one's life!.

If Murphy had a little more life-experience under his belt, his action's would most likely have employed more care for his personal safety then demonstrated in "jon_j_rambo's" posting.

Never-the-less, Murphy displayed uncommon courage in the face of near certain death!.