Done with SC2 already

[Sombra]

Originally posted by dicedtomato:

Like many others, Iron Ranger misunderstands the word "historical." An historical game doesn't mean that the Axis must do the stupid things they did in real life. I don't know any gamers that would want a game to unfold exactly as history.

It's not what happens that counts. What's important is WHY things happen. An historical game provides rewards and penalties for various strategies. For example, the Axis had severe difficulties supplying their troops in Africa. In SC2, the Axis can easily mass enough land and air power to take Suez and overrun western Russia - all in the summer of 1941. The Axis wouldn't have tried that in real life; they would have had to make choices. SC2 relieves them of the need for choice.

Similarly, real-life logistics imposes constraints on the ability to mass aircraft. You just don't mass five airfleets (a couple of thousand aircraft) in the middle of the Libyan desert one week, and then send them all to the Urals in the next. Because you can do that in SC2, air power becomes far more flexible and devastating than it should be, which means historically difficult strategies become easy.

Because the Axis have the initiative, numbers and tech at the start of the game, these flaws tend to favor them. I don't say it was impossible for the Axis to conquer the Middle East or England. I just question whether they could do it all almost simultaneously. There's a difference between alternate history and sheer fantasy.

You can keep sticking realism Band-Aids on the system, but I suspect you'll just disturb some other factor. Make air power more realistic, and then it's the Axis who have trouble winning.

I don't know what Hubert's goals were. Judging by the way SC2 turned out, I think he would put playabiilty ahead of realism.

Diced Tomato

I think DT has some very good points here. Yes its a game but things have to feel right and make sense for me too to make a war game enjoyable.

Realism doesnt mean necessarily that you have to drown in details but as a commander of the axis and the allies you should have to face the same restricions as in the real world.

One point which has been brought up by DT is that you are very flexible with your armies and can switch around the wolrd in few weeks. One day in afrika next week we are fighting in Rusia.

Another topic is for me the "missing reaction" of minor nations if one after the other is conquered. Wouldnt they a least build up more trioops if they see a hungry empire is on the move?

On the other hand I hate scripted events like the ghost amies in America showing up in case of invasion. Aehmm , though the reason why an invasion in the Us was "impossible" is not the small Atlantic and logistics but the fear an rebel army showing up out of nowhere. Ah, ok tansfer of american assets from the pacifi doest have any influence how the war in the pacific goes and Stalin had 3 million first rate troops in siberia and they can be transfered with in aweek and Jpan simply ignores that rusia is now wide open and still attacks the US etc. etc.

As a game SC2 is much fun, unfortunately it fails to give the player realistic contrictions what is possible and what would be impossible.

Siberian mass transfer to balance the game because the game

[Jollyguy]

I agree with DT and Sombra about operating. This has been a gripe of mine since SC 1, and it primarily favors the Axis. IMO we have production pools that force planning on what to purchase, so maybe we should have something similar for operating. There is no way entire army and tank groups could move thousands of miles in one or two weeks and be fully equipped and ready to fight.

Maybe there should be an operating pool, where the unit is placed for operating movement which occurs one or two or three turns later. Of course the simplest approach in a beer and pretzels game would be to just make operating more expensive, like amphib is, perhaps calibrated to the distances involved. Believe me, with the reduced mpps in SC 2, I think twice about amphib’ing something, especially a tank or army. So if operating was equally expensive it would abstractly accomplish a lot within the parameters of the game system.

DT has other good points, but on balance I’m going to come down squarely on Blashy’s side. If you don’t like something in the game, use the editor or check out a mod. I just checked, and Honch’s global war mod has 185 posts, which might be a record for a single topic, perhaps as much or more than the amphib post a few months ago. And there are also house rules. In SC 1 the handicap system evolved within the community, and no landings on a major DOW nor RRI also became standard. Some players limited the number of airfleets that could be built. In SC 2 no Southern Turkey invasion looks like a must until Turkey is patched, and IMO no Sea Lion until Russia enters is also probably a good house rule (both of course recommended by Terif). If an opponent in a game requested me to not have diplomacy by either side, or no diplomacy against majors, I would be okay with that as long as we played mirror games.

So like Timskorn said, the game is what it is. You either like or you don’t, and if you don’t like the standard 39 scenario, mod it or house rule it, and if you don’t want to do any of these, then SC 2 isn’t the game for you.

But in closing, SC 2 is already a great game, and IMO has even more potential. SC 1 was well supported with 7 patches, with many, many, many of the changes arising from bugs and flaws pointed out (oftentimes heatedly) on these discussion forums. So I have no doubt that SC 2 version 1.03 will have many upgrades compared to 1.02, and so on.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

Like I said 4 years ago. The A.I. doesn't count, it's that short & sweet...and use a bid system.

-Legend

[Yogi]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Like I said 4 years ago. The A.I. doesn't count, it's that short & sweet...and use a bid system.

-Legend

For some one who likes to be right, you really should consider not saying it anymore.

Example of positions which should be recognized as personal preference or opinion only. Not what everyone one else should or must believe.

1) The AI is not important.

2) The AI is the most important part of the game.

3) The editor is a waste of time.

4) Quit complaining you can fix it with the editor.

5) It's just a game, history and/or realism doesn't matter.

6) The game fails if it does not have the historical outcome.

7) The game should not be expected to be a good historical simulation.

8) The game should not be expected to consider what if's.

9) Only games with hexes are worthwhile.

10) Only games with tiles are worthwhile.

11) The game is great, because the legend always wins.

12) The game is great because the legend has lost a few.

I would guess some of you may have other examples. The point is we all have our wish list and preferences. It doesn't make us wrong or not worth considering. The more people you can please, the more games you can sell. The more games you sell, the better the chance of staying in the business.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Yogi --- Believe whatever you want, son. I know the Truth. Lets play a game, I feel like knocking you out. Learn to know your roll & shut your hole.

Doing my job,

-Legend

[Yogi]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@Yogi --- Believe whatever you want, son. I know the Truth. Lets play a game, I feel like knocking you out. Learn to know your roll & shut your hole.

Doing my job,

-Legend

Hmm, must have hit a sore spot. Perhaps you are more sensitive then you like to portray? Actually Rambo, between my schedule and my ultra crappy dial-up service, it is difficult for me to commit to on-line gaming. (One reason AI is so important). And besides, I have been following the SC and SC2 exploits of the Legend for quite some time. I have great respect for your playing ability, and knolwedge of the game. I recognize you as a true legend of SC2.

By the way, did you know that if you belittle your opponent and win, it makes your victory hollow and prooves nothing about your own actual ability. On the other hand, if you build up your opponent as being skillful and worthy and then win, you can boast about your great accomplishment and prove your own great skills.

Think about it. How many victories do you have against worthy opponents?

Oh thanks for the concern, but I do know my role. Unfortunately if I shut my hole, eventually it causes a large and painful build up. Besides, My Dad always told me to not talk out of it, which by the way is very sound advice.

[simov]

Hi, just wanted to drop by and cheer on HC and you people who strive to make the game better!

Version 1.00 was a bit of a letdown for me too (I play only against AI). However, with patch 1.03 and using Blashy's mod I have enjoyed the game at least as much as SC1 - even though I had already got completely bored of SC1 after playing it for countless hours

So, great work. Only thing that I now worry is that if it gets better too soon I may have to spend my summer holidays indoors

simov

[dicedtomato]

I think Rambo is a sock puppet. He's too much of a caricature to be real. I wonder if someone on this forum is having a little fun with us. Either that, or multiple personality disorder.

Diced Tomato

[Timskorn]

Hah. I remember back in the day (Yes, I was around under another name in SC1 days), people first started theorizing Rambo was actually Hubert.

[Blashy]

Jollyguy, no need for house rules preventing Sealion and no invasion of Turkey via south with my mod.

No need for any house rules.

As for operating, if you use raliheads it makes it much less crazy since you firt have to be next to a city and have 5 or better supply.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Yogi --- Whatever. I don't anal-lize everything. I don't read manuals. I don't read about my opponents. I don't worship buntas. I don't get concerned about my opponents. I don't play the A.I. I don't call bums 'champions' in order to beef up my victories.

What I do do...is read the KJV. That's it, it's my entire library. What I do do...is knock out bums who come onto this Forum acting like they know something about gaming, history, or whatever. I'm the neutralizer, the chemical reaction to the losers who suck. I deal with the muck that needs addressed. I sweep it up & throw it in the burn pile.

I don't want to play you TCP/IP, PBEM is just fine. You've made my TODO list.

It's not that I "like to be right", it's because "I am right". Truth has no emotion, it's fact, it's a principle.....Truth cannot be debated. People that do debate, do not believe. This side of the Truth, that side of the Truth.

Therefore, do you want to play a PBEM game? Yes or No? It's not a trick question. Either you play, or make excuse, choice is yours, son.

Tired of the crying AND I AM GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT!

You have to Noon tomorrow to answer.

Too much Legend, too little time >>>>>>>> OUT

[Yogi]

Tired of the crying AND I AM GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT!

I'm sorry Rambo, I didn't mean to make you cry. We better not play, I'd be afraid of your reaction should you unexpectedly lose.

All kidding aside, I actually do respect your SC & SC2 play ability and skill. One more point however. You can challenge anyone and may be able to beat just about everyone in a game. Doesn't prove anything about being right. Playing the game well and being right about opinions are two different things. Keep posting though, many of us enjoy reading your comments for the entertainment value if nothing else.

It's not that I "like to be right", it's because "I am right". Truth has no emotion, it's fact, it's a principle.....Truth cannot be debated. People that do debate, do not believe. This side of the Truth, that side of the Truth.

Right about what? Truth itself if known, might not be debatable, but many try. Opinion can certainly be debated, except you can only debate if the opinion is right. You can't debate that it is the person's opinion. Confusing hey? Let me translate. The truth is I have my opinion as do others. That means you're wrong and have already lost. Now go forth and win some more SC2, it will make you feel better.

And thanks for the exchange Rambo. I enjoy having you on the forum and respect your opinion. That's just my opinion of course. Perhaps you would like to debate it.

[blackbellamy]

Originally posted by dicedtomato:

I think Rambo is a sock puppet. He's too much of a caricature to be real. I wonder if someone on this forum is having a little fun with us. Either that, or multiple personality disorder.

Diced Tomato

LOL no, nothing that complex. Most every forum has at least one sanctimonious jerk, and Rambo fills that spot here. He's interesting at first, but then you realize he contributes nothing but spam. I'm the best, my god is the best, you all suck, oh yeah I'm the best, and the AI doesn't matter, whatever.

He's probably twice as unpleasant in real life, but fortunately we'll never have that pleasure.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by blackbellamy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dicedtomato:

I think Rambo is a sock puppet. He's too much of a caricature to be real. I wonder if someone on this forum is having a little fun with us. Either that, or multiple personality disorder.

Diced Tomato

LOL no, nothing that complex. Most every forum has at least one sanctimonious jerk, and Rambo fills that spot here. He's interesting at first, but then you realize he contributes nothing but spam. I'm the best, my god is the best, you all suck, oh yeah I'm the best, and the AI doesn't matter, whatever.

He's probably twice as unpleasant in real life, but fortunately we'll never have that pleasure. </font>

[dicedtomato]

I've suspected for a while that Kuniworth is Rambo. They both use the word "Bunta", which I've never heard anywhere else (I thought it was an African tribe). Their syntax isn't identical, but fairly close.

Diced Tomato

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by dicedtomato:

I've suspected for a while that Kuniworth is Rambo. They both use the word "Bunta", which I've never heard anywhere else (I thought it was an African tribe). Their syntax isn't identical, but fairly close.

Diced Tomato

I actually agreed with your view on historical realism but now you stab me in the back. Guess you can't handle confident people and gotta do a circle jerk with your gay(=happy) group down at the Blue Oyster Bar. You obviosuly diced one too many tomato-braincells. And everybody know's you use the alias "Cheese Panzer" and "Blackbellamy" around here. Yes that's right your little frined Fartknocker told me about your sick games, using all your sparetime to write in this forum.

You happy with yourself?

Think you are tough because you call yourself Mr Tomato?

[dicedtomato]

This is intriguing. Kuniworth talks like Rambo. But if Rambo is Kuniworth's sock puppet, why would Kuniworth create a personality so close to his own? You'd think a sock puppet would be the opposite.

As for Kuniworth's fixation with the word "gay", his Buntaland site has a section called LEGENDARY (that Rambo word again) EPISODES. It's all about him playing a guy called Masturbator. Curiouser and curiouser...

Diced Tomato

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by dicedtomato:

This is intriguing. Kuniworth talks like Rambo. But if Rambo is Kuniworth's sock puppet, why would Kuniworth create a personality so close to his own? You'd think a sock puppet would be the opposite.

As for Kuniworth's fixation with the word "gay", his Buntaland site has a section called LEGENDARY (that Rambo word again) EPISODES. It's all about him playing a guy called Masturbator. Curiouser and curiouser...

Diced Tomato

Mr Tomato or should I say Inspector Closeau thinks he sniffed up something other than his sweaty foot-tomato juice after visiting the Buntaland site. Well Colombo that is really substantial evidence you got there, let me see;

"Kuniworth had a game with star player MASTURBATOR, hm that is clear evidence that he is infact Rambo????"

You lost it son. Take your pills like Momma Tomtato and Daddy Diced ordered you to do.

[Blashy]

Well a Tomato is a fruit, not far off from gay.

J/K, just had to put it in there.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Well a Tomato is a fruit, not far off from gay.

Lol you are right Blashy. That guy's a fruit. But I don't think a tomato is a fruit it's a vegetable. Not that it makes his case any better.

[glenmorangie]

Blue Oyster Bar..........didnt they do Dont Fear The Reaper?

They are also (well BOC are also) the only band in the world to have a ME 262 on an album cover in fact I think ( I know)they had a song about it as well.

Hey ho!

[glenmorangie]

Oh yes ... visiting sailor pubs in SF LMAO

[zmoney]

This thread is awesome.

HI MOM.

[Blashy]

Actually a Tomato is a fruit, 9 out of 10 people think it is a vegetable. Same as the potato.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato

[jon_j_rambo]

@Yogi --- Bottom line you declined the challenge, you are a coward. I wanted the whole world to see what you really are. That's another fact. I have no respect for you or your gaming ability. Sitting around on your stepmom's computer complaining about the A.I. is no way to live. This is Center Court, you failed. Seriously, how do you live with yourself? Getting bitch slapped can't be fun. I don't enjoy this either, but it's something that must be done.

@AnyOtherComplainers --- Where is the next skirt crying about the A.I.?

Who's next?

Rambo ain't not A.I.

Rambo ain't no buntalover

Rambo ain't gonna' take it no more

You complain about crap, you're going to get crapped on. Speaking of A.I., where is Eddie?