Why no Hunt and Scoot command?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Reading the saga styled Retreating Monster Tanks I am glad to see that Redwood has reached Nirvana with the Shoot & Scoot command. I'm very glad for him but I still can't fathom why the command isn't Hunt & Scoot instead.

Wouldn't it make more sense to change the fast move portion of the order to a hunt command so that as sson as an enemy AFV (for instance) is spotted, your tank/assault gun immediately halts to fire a shot and then bugger off. The problem with the current command is that you have to guess where an appropriate position is to fast move to using the ol' eyeball Mark 1 method. Unfortunately, you can often misjudge or not allow for an unexpected appearance of another enemy AFV which would normally halt your tank/assault gun if using the hunt command.

As it is now the fast move order is pretty much always executed and if your AFV is surprised by anything or you've misjudged the distance to fast move, your unit can often end up beingexecuted. I'm just curious if anyone has any ideas about the use of fast move as opposed to hunt?

Regards

Jim R.

[ December 05, 2002, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Kanonier Reichmann ]

[Michael Emrys]

I've had the same thought, Jim, as have some other folks. I think there was a thread on it a couple of months back. I would also like an Ambush command where the AFV waits in position, pops off a round or two when something comes into range, and then scoots. That's the true shoot & scoot tactic as I understand it. What we have now should more properly be called Pop-up, Shoot, & Scoot.

But I am assuming that all this will be taken care of in CMII with the addition of SOPs.

Michael

[Hat Trick]

Perhaps "scoot" can be added as a command, like "hide". That way it can be used with any movement command -- e.g., move, hunt, fast move, even revesrse to a point, then scoot.

[Lars]

A good point.

Perhaps because the old "Tophat and Lowski" trick from CMBO still works?

[kgsan]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

[QB]Wouldn't it make more sense to change the fast move portion of the order to a hunt command so that as sson as an enemy AFV (for instance) is spotted, your tank/assault gun immediately halts to fire a shot and then bugger off. The problem with the current command is that you have to guess where an appropriate position is to fast move to using the ol' eyeball Mark 1 method. Unfortunately, you can often misjudge or not allow for an unexpected appearance of another enemy AFV which would normally halt your tank/assault gun if using the hunt command.

As it is now the fast move order is pretty much always executed and if your AFV is surprised by anything or you've misjudged the distance to fast move, your unit can often end up beingexecuted. I'm just curious if anyone has any ideas about the use of fast move as opposed to hunt? [QB]

I second this suggestion. I had never bothered using the shoot & scoot until a recent PBEM. I just assumed that the initial move order was a hunt (I should have paid more attention) and my poor Stug went down in flames. It would agree that hunt movement seems a much more logical choice for this command since the goal is get the quick shot in as soon as the target is available and then get the heck out of there.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I've had the same thought, Jim, as have some other folks.

Some other highly intelligent yet strangely modest folks, I believe, ahem.

I would also like an Ambush command where the AFV waits in position, pops off a round or two when something comes into range, and then scoots.

That was a good idea last time you said it, and it still is. It fits well with the existing cover arc business too.

But I am assuming that all this will be taken care of in CMII with the addition of SOPs.

Maybe if we start a propaganda campaign calling it the 'Lack of SOPs BUG' they'll put them in the patch?

Eden

[General Tacticus]

The "Shoot and Scoot" as it it now...ie a "fast + pause + scoot" is very useful for tanks...race out of caver, jam on the brakes, fire a shoot, and cahrge for caver again...need for BT's etc...a hunt whould get them killed...

SnS is not perfect, but it better than what we had in CMBO

Here's to SOP's in the rewrite

[istari]

So glad others have experienced the same thing and wished for the same change.

Particularly when trying to get the drop on a moving target in the distance, it can be difficult to assess where the precise hull-down position will be in 30sec time. Too many times I've misjudged and exposed too much of my StuG or other AFV and had it blown away as it was motoring upwards.

I just want the tank to creep up to show the minimal silhouette, see the enemy, shoot 1-2 shots and retreat.

I have no idea how difficult this would be to code, either as a change to SnS, or as an additional menu option for AFVs, but here's one more vote for its addition.

Istari

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Perhaps if we keep hammering away enough "they" will listen. Think Field of Dreams.

Regards

Jim R.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Reading the saga styled Retreating Monster Tanks I am glad to see that Redwood has reached Nirvana with the Shoot & Scoot command. I'm very glad for him but I still can't fathom why the command isn't Hunt & Scoot instead.

Wouldn't it make more sense to change the fast move portion of the order to a hunt command so that as sson as an enemy AFV (for instance) is spotted, your tank/assault gun immediately halts to fire a shot and then bugger off. The problem with the current command is that you have to guess where an appropriate position is to fast move to using the ol' eyeball Mark 1 method. Unfortunately, you can often misjudge or not allow for an unexpected appearance of another enemy AFV which would normally halt your tank/assault gun if using the hunt command.

Okay, I'll give this a go. I believe that, as nice for the Player as a 'Hunt and Scoot' command might be, it would introduce a level of 'too much precision' into the game.

Frankly, the Real World tactic of being aware that 'very bad things' were out there, and trying to cope with it on the fly, would be made almost too 'Uber', by allowing AFV crews this level of precision.

The situation is: A Tank crew knows that there are bad guys. The Tank crew is then allowed the ability to precisely, by the designation of the engine, inch forward in what would otherwise be a 'high tension/ nervous battle of wits' situation to find the precise point at which they could shoot, and then retreat.

I don't think Reality works this way.

You encounter Enemy tanks, you escape, you know that you need to get out there and hurt people, you don't have computer driven cruise control for doing so.

That's Reality. A big aspect of not allowing this sort of 'Fine Control' is trying to mitigate the effects of 'Borg Spotting'.

The Real World is a messy place. In the Real World, units aren't allowed to use calipers to find the precise place to fire from before retreating to safety.

Of course, someone who's only intent was to be the God Of Battle, Smiting His/Her Foes With Perfect Precision, would find the ability to 'hunt and scoot' purely commensurate with their desires.

I, personally, do not anticipate BFC exacting this particular patch...

[Michael Emrys]

Seanachai, I agree with what you say about not allowing too much precision, but I don't think that is what people are asking for. The present system of graphic representation in the game makes it hard enough to estimate the true contours of the ground that some player are either stopping movement too soon or carrying it much too far, a circumstance that would not occur frequently in real combat, where the halt is called by the gunner to the driver by watching through his sight until he has clear view of the target.

In fact, using a Hunt & Scoot command could provide even greater realism as it could be adjusted according to the experience of the crew. Inexperienced crews would have a greater tendency to continue over the optimum crest and unnecessarily exposing their vehicle, a factor that is presently negated by players who are especially good at estimating the best position.

Anyway, what do you think of my other Ambush & Scoot idea?

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I've had the same thought, Jim, as have some other folks.

Some other highly intelligent yet strangely modest folks, I believe, ahem.</font>

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Seanachai, I agree with what you say about not allowing too much precision, but I don't think that is what people are asking for. The present system of graphic representation in the game makes it hard enough to estimate the true contours of the ground that some player are either stopping movement too soon or carrying it much too far, a circumstance that would not occur frequently in real combat, where the halt is called by the gunner to the driver by watching through his sight until he has clear view of the target.

In fact, using a Hunt & Scoot command could provide even greater realism as it could be adjusted according to the experience of the crew. Inexperienced crews would have a greater tendency to continue over the optimum crest and unnecessarily exposing their vehicle, a factor that is presently negated by players who are especially good at estimating the best position.

Anyway, what do you think of my other Ambush & Scoot idea?

Michael

This is a good point, actually.

I guess we'll have to kill Grog Dorosh after all, eh?

But I don't know that it 'wouldn't occur in real combat'. I mean, really. I think of where I've used this, and it's generally been where I had a tank encounter something nasty, and they've already buggered off. I tell them to go back, and have a very cautious 'nother crack at it. I can often get them to do this a number of times.

But, in most of the cases where I've used it, I've known that my unit was quite probably 'overmatched', either in terms of what beast they were fighting, or how many. I think you have a valid point about building into the engine compensations for the vagaries of the terrain model, but I don't know that it completely invalidates concerns about the 'reactions' of crews in combat.

And I still think a big factor would be abuse because of 'borg spotting'. A unit that would have only the most basic knowledge of 'what to do in a bad situation, as it arose for them in particular', can now 'proactively cope' with the drama of an unequal shoot-out, often without ever having encountered the original opponent.

If other units, some of which couldn't conceivably have precise communication with the AFV in question, have spotted the opponent, the AFV can move with fair precision, even with the simple abilities of a Michael Emrys or a Seanachai, to find the best 'Shoot and Scoot' location.

Should we then allow this unit even more precision by allowing the AI to manage it into finding the precise moment when they can spot the other tank?

it is a difficult call.

I long for the wisdom of BFC.

Of course, I also long for the fact that the whiskey hadn't run out 25 minutes ago.

Sometimes I wish I were a Real Grog. But then I think about the horrendous social costs.

I don't think I could handle having teenage girls show up wherever I go, offering me sexual favours if I explain what exactly 'shatter gap' is, and how the various test grounds have all failed to completely define an exact formula for modeling APC penetrative power.

[ December 06, 2002, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Seanachai ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

I don't think I could handle having teenage girls show up wherever I go, offering me sexual favours if I explain what exactly 'shatter gap' is, and how the various test grounds have all failed to completely define an exact formula for modeling APC penetrative power.

It definitely can be a distraction. Still, I feel I have a duty to perform on behalf of humankind at large and keeping all this precious DNA to myself would be nothing short of a crime.

Michael

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Another thought on "Hunt & Scoot". Why not make such an order only available to Regular crews or better, or even Veteran crews or better if you think it's too precise for everyday crews to have been able to do in real life.

Regards

Jim R.

[JonS]

I too, had the same thought as others re: 'hunt & scoot"

The rationale I came up with for the way it is now ("fast & scoot") was that - in addition to the too much precision thing (and it would mean that fairly sloppy player orders would result in very effective movement), it would be a bear to program.

As it stands now, the hunt (for tanks) and move to contact (for infantry) mean that, if an enemy unit is spotted, all other commands are immediately deleted.

However, if S&S were to be changed to a H&S format, the program would have to retain the 'scoot' part of the order, and shift the starting waypoint from wherever the player plonked it down to where ever the tank is right now. I assumed it was too much for the AI (or which ever part of the program it is that deals with such things) to keep track of.

Regards

JonS

[ December 06, 2002, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Lt Bull]

I agree. I would think Hunt n' Scoot would be a good addition to the available set of commands. It would probably be used more often than the current Shoot n' Scoot. It seems to be more indicative of the types of legitimate tactical orders issued to tanks at a CM level eg. "Advance towards the enemy and stop and engage any enemy targets AS SOON as you spot them, then retreat. Do not advance beyond 25m". You can add "I don't give a f#&% where you stop and engage, just stop/engage/retreat as soon as you spot a target".

Originally posted by Seanachai:

Isn't this exactly what a Hunt n' Scoot is trying to eliminate? The whole point about having the current Shoot n' Scoot work is the precision required in where to place the initial marker (the location at where the tank will stop and search for targets). You need precision to place the marker at the right spot where it allows the tank LOS to a target to engage (I would imagine the use of this command by many players coincides with them already having a target spotted by other units rather than just issuing the command without any target in mind).

Sure, I do consider being able to predict where LOS exists on the map might be part of the skill (and fun) of playing CM. But when it comes to issuing Shoot n' Scoot commands, it seems that the command is driven by un "unexplainable" and dare I say "unrealistic" priority to rush madly to some particular spot on the ground before considering engaging a target, even if this means having a potential target go out of LOS or forsaking a hulldown position earlier on from where it could have more safely engaged the target.

The current Shoot n' Scoot command reminds me of the kind of command you would issue in a defensive situation where carefully pre-planned and layed out defenses have been mapped out across a well surveyed terrain, with key ambush positions identified and designated. Particular "Shoot n' Scoot" positions would have been "tested" or "rehearsed" to guarantee LOS "down the valley" or "across the wheatfield" or whatever. In this case, having a priority to "blindly" reach the first marker on the Shoot n' Scoot command would now make a lot more sense.

Lt Bull

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Another thought on "Hunt & Scoot". Why not make such an order only available to Regular crews or better, or even Veteran crews or better if you think it's too precise for everyday crews to have been able to do in real life.

My understanding (possibly mistaken) is that this was a standard piece of doctrine that was expected to be known by anyone who had received adequate training in his weapon.

I think I would permit any crews green or above to use it, but that more experienced crews would use it more effectively: less likely to hunt too far; faster spotting/identifying a target; faster getting the gun sighted and a shot off; more accurate fire; less delay before executing the scoot portion of the order. And so on. I think you may realize that most of this is already coded for experience.

Michael

[Redwolf]

What is needed here is a TacOps-like "SOP" command.

For those who don't know TacOps: in a seperate box with permananet settings you set things like these:

Obviously, "move" and "move to contact" would become one command then, but with different SOP settings.

Shoot-and-scoot would be roughly translated a "fast move" and SOP "retreat after firing".

Hunt would be "medium-speed move" and "stop when spotting enemy".

Now, TacOps SOPs wouldn't be directly translatable because of other engine differences, but a subset would make sense very directly. Steve once said SOPs can be expected for the rewrite.

[ December 07, 2002, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Battlefront.com]

Guys,

The order is going to stay "as is" for three reasons:

1. Combining S&S with Hull Down is not easy to do (coding wise).

2. Combining S&S with Hunt would probably result in an overall degree of control the player should not have. When it works that is, which leads me to the second problem...

3. Hunt is something that opens the unit up for all sorts of difficult to predict outcomes. The whole point of S&S is to move to a set location, fire a shot, and withdraw to a set location. The problem is that once we open the unit up to Hunt... all bets are off.

Even if #1 is not agreed with, #2 is a killer. We thought about this back in the Beta days and it was decided to leave it as is. Not perfect, for sure, but also not "broken".

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Hi Steve,

Has any thought been given to a command that would allow an AFV to remain in position until a target enters its CA, then fires a shot or two, and then scoots? I realize this might require more coding effort than is available for any prospective patch for BB, but is there any chance it could make it into CMII?

Michael

[ December 10, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Good point Michael. I'm all for it if it can be done. Would be especially useful for Marders, SU 76's and the like being as they're so vulnerable to just about anything.

Regards

Jim R.