With CM and CMBB, should I bother with ASL?

[Commissar]

I was in a store a couple of weeks ago and saw the 2nd ed. rules for ASL and the "Beyond Valor" expansion. I started thinking about how I used to play SL back in my teens. This was hard to do since I had no one to play against. It's not really all that possible to surprise myself since I played both sides. I thought of rebuying ASL and "Beyond Valor" since mine are fairly old and probably missing from my parents' house. With CM and CMBB, should I even bother? Granted, if I want some Pacific action I may have to but otherwise it seems CM and CMBB gives me that great tactical action without me pouring over pages and pages and pages of rules. For you ASL/SL vets, what parts of SL do you still prefer that isn't in CM/CMBB? Just wondering....

[ May 31, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Agua]

You know the tradeoffs. There's an undeniable value in the thorough understanding of the capabilities of the various units that comes with having to mentally grapple with the computation of movement, morale modifiers, combat resolution, blah, blah, that you just can't get by allowing the computer to do these calculations for you, (that is if you even could know the relevant abstractions utilized in CM, which you can't). On the other hand, you don't have to fool with all the tedious things associated with board gaming (including computing movement, modifiers, combat resolution, blah, blah...LOL). Personally, I don't mind being lazy and letting the computer do all that stuff. So in my case, it would be purely a question of sentimentality. Your mileage may vary.

[Dirtweasle]

Oh I still miss judging LOS with a length of string and then arguing about the rules for 30 minutes on each turn...

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Commissar:

I was in a store a couple of weeks ago and saw the 2nd ed. rules for ASL and the "Beyond Valor" expansion. I started thinking about how I used to play SL back in my teens. This was hard to do since I had no one to play against. It's not really all that possible to surprise myself since I played both sides. I thought of rebuying ASL and "Beyond Valor" since mine are fairly old and probably missing from my parents' house. With CM and CMBB, should I even bother? Granted, if I want some Pacific action I may have to but otherwise it seems CM and CMBB gives me that great tactical action without me pouring over pages and pages and pages of rules. For you ASL/SL vets, what parts of SL do you still prefer that isn't in CM/CMBB? Just wondering....

you are joking right?

:eek:

I can't imagine EVER playing with card board counters EVER again for ONE GOOD reason

THERE IS NO fog of war!

That WAS always my biggest beef with board games because my opponents were brilliant at math and I think they should have grown up to be Vega odds makers because they ALWAYS attacked with their strongest units and ALWAYS inspected every unit and every stack to gain the MOST favourable odds in every engagment. (then you role the dice and you don't have to get all the LUCKY to win every time) If thats what you call good tactics then it only works all the time when there is NO fog of war and every body and see all the opposing units.YES folks they were all Min-Maxers at their VERY finest, thats why I DEPISE any tactics that are premised on the theory of Min-Max!

Save your money for CMBB and Strategic Command

-tom w

[ May 31, 2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Durbish]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Oh I still miss judging LOS with a length of string and then arguing about the rules for 30 minutes on each turn...

*chuckle*

It's the whole uber-pet laying waste to entire battalions with a swish of the tail thing that gets me, very gamey...

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Durbish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Oh I still miss judging LOS with a length of string and then arguing about the rules for 30 minutes on each turn...

*chuckle*

It's the whole uber-pet laying waste to entire battalions with a swish of the tail thing that gets me, very gamey...</font>

[Ace Pilot]

For a short answer, my opinion is don't waste the money on ASL. Why go through the pain of learning pages and pages of rules when you've got a computer that can do it for you. Also, ASL can't provide the fog of war that CM can, nor an always available opponent in the form of the AI. And have you ever tried to play ASL/SL by email?

That being said, I agree that there are some things I miss from SL (never played ASL - got too complicated for me). They are:

Dice rolls that allowed you to figure out and understand the probablility of any event occurring.

Victory conditions that could be tailored anyway you like.

Easily added special rules, like paratrooper and glider arrivals (the rules themselves may not have been easy, but the game's framework made it easy to add rules).

Being able to use church steeples and other third level buildings.

Unlimited squad ammo.

Leaders that could man machine guns (and the associated heroic stands by Lt. Stahler!).

Stairwells in buildings and the epic fights to control them.

The ability to transfer support weapons like MGs, demo charges, bazookas, etc.

Using an AFV to roll right through a wooden building and reduce it to rubble.

The fed up Leader that shoots the cowering squad (or causes them to surrender), i.e., rolls a 12 on a rally attempt.

Anyone else recall features from SL/ASL that they miss?

Although I miss these aspects from SL, there's no way I'd go back to it as long as I have CM. CM's WEGO system and fog of war alone make up for these missing items. Add in the degree of realism that CM has, along with its ability to track items that were too tedious to track in SL (ammo, which units have moved, which have fired, etc.) and I think CM is head and shoulders above ASL/SL.

Ace

[ParaBellum]

Gotta drop in here before you guys get too sentimental...

Dirtweasle! Where's my turn?

Just because you knocked out my Panthers, blasted my infantry and overran my Flak guns doens't mean you already won the operation!

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi all

What I miss is the actual tacticle feel of those little cardboard counters and the thrill of physically rolling dice but then I am a Miniatures Wargamer at heart so am probably biased but CMBO almost makes up for it with its excellent sound effects

No doubt though that CMBO has all but taken over my Wargaming time with precious little Miniatures gaming happening and absolutely no Board Wargaming (cant bear to part with a single game though).

Cheers

[Michael Dorosh]

Didn't I send you my ASL interface mod? It's the next best thing It's now up for download at Tom's, or will be once his server stops sucking.

Seriously, my biggest problem was finding anyone groggy enough to play against. My friends hated all the rules; I wanted more rules...(!)

I flirted with the idea of going to the local ASL club last summer but never really got up the gumption.

[Michael Dorosh]

To actually answer the question though - great victory conditions you could define any way you wanted, to simulate different kinds of missions. CMBO is too inflexible in this regard.

[dalem]

I think there will always be a place for my ASL shelf in my home. Even if I never play the game again, which is likely, there is still an awful lot of valuable material and research in there.

But I wouldn't recommend anyone start from scratch with ASL.

-dale

[Snake Eyes]

My SL/ASL experience goes all the way back to the purple box. My CM experience is about two years old. I love them both, but it's sure a lot easier to play CM. Not nearly as much tedium with CM. With ASL you wait for your opponent to make his move, then he waits for you. You argue, debate, discuss, and fight over interpretations of arcane rules. But the beauty of ASL is its depth. I find CM lacking in this regard. But hey, it's only a couple of years old and it has a great future.

I still play one ASL PBEM game on the side. My long term wargaiming buddy and I have been playing one scenario for over a year now. In the meantime we've played countless CM games.

Now in answer to your question: If you want to gain a better understanding of WWII tactical level warfare I'd say yes, make the plunge. But treat it more like a study than anything else. If your main interest is game play and fun, stick with CM. Besides the tactics you develop in CM will be more realistic anyway.

If you decide to try ASL you should checkout VASL.org for a system that allows you to PBEM easily or even play online.

[ May 31, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ]

[Michael Dorosh]

This may be a dumb question, but do you still have your purple box and the ability to scan it/photograph it? I

keep hearing about them, but all my internet searches turn up zilch - I have never seen one! And I am dying to

know what it looked like.

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Didn't I send you my ASL interface mod? It's the next best thing It's now up for download at Tom's, or will be once his server stops sucking.

.

Yes, you did but the LOS by string is missing. Perhaps in version two you can put a box of floss for the LOS tool in the menu

Well, it seems that most of you have declared ASL dead--killed by CM. Can't say that I blame you. That binder of rules is a real headache. It's probably why I stopped playing SL/ASL a long while back. Lack of any real fog of war was also big drawback. Those "?" counters never really was much of a substitute. Getting my friends to play was impossible. They take one look at even the SL rulebook then declare they'd rather do something else. Couldn't even get them to read enough to play "The Guards Counterattack". Anything beyond Axis And Allies was too much for them to bear. Risk was more their style.

[Grisha]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Didn't I send you my ASL interface mod? It's the next best thing It's now up for download at Tom's, or will be once his server stops sucking.

Seriously, my biggest problem was finding anyone groggy enough to play against. My friends hated all the rules; I wanted more rules...(!)

I flirted with the idea of going to the local ASL club last summer but never really got up the gumption.

Michael,

I was a hardcore SL fan back in the late seventies, early eighties. Are planning on making an SL("Cross of Iron") GUI for CMBB? I'm going to see about getting your present SL GUI mod for CMBO.

[Randy Mauldin]

I had ASL for years and it sat gathering dust on my game shelf. Never got past the first couple of scenarios. Never got into tanks or guns, just played infantry scenarios occationaly. Then a couple of years ago I decided I was tired of looking at it sitting there doing nothing so I got out Jim Stahlers Programmed Instruction Guide and buckled down to learn it. Learned how to move and fire Tanks, learned AT Guns, even tried to figure out the Off Board Artillery rules (IMHO the hardest part of the game). Anyway about the time I had a partial grasp of the game, along came CMBO and I haven't picked it up since.

But having said that, I really did like ASL. I love rolling the dice and the feeling of, "All I need to do is roll 8 or less and this tanks history!" type of thing. The anticipation of the tumbling dice is something that is missing in computer games. I'll never forget debating with myself as I was facing down the front hull of a Panther tank with a bazooka, whether or not I should try to disable the beast with a deliberate immobilization or fire away and hope for a turret hit (I was facing the side of the turret). Deciding to go for broke I went for the turret and jumped for joy when I rolled them bones and they came up "snake eyes", a critical hit! I could almost see that Panther going up in flames! Like CMBO, I have a lot of fond memories of ASL.

I guess to answer your question, buy if you can afford it....but I would recommend Jim Stahlers Programmed Instruction guide to learning the game. It takes some work, but it makes learning the game easier. From a purely gaming point of view, ASL like CMBO really is a great game.

[Georgii2222]

I have been an ASL player for about 5 years now. When CMBO first came out, I really considered selling all of my ASL stuff (A LOT!), but in the end, I decided there's really no substitute for it. Sittin in front of a computer monitor just can't compare to sitting across the table from someone and whooping it up when you get a shock-kill on their King Tiger with a 60mm mortar (OK, so it's gamey, but it's fun). There's a visceral thrill and anxiety playing ASL that I just can't seem to find with CMBO (and I imagine CMBB, as well). So, alas, I shant sell my ASL stuff, and, although I don't play as often as I used to (I admit, it IS tedious) I will still attend tourneys and such on occasion (1 straight week of ASL @ Oktoberfest is pure heaven, although you're pretty brain-fried by the time it's over). Well, I'll stop my babbling now, but I'll always play ASL....

Jeff Ital

St. Louis, MO

[Snake Eyes]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...but do you still have your purple box and the ability to scan it/photograph it?

Here it is in all its glory, the original SL box.

I used to play ASL with death-head dice; dice with skulls for ones. Nothing matches the exhilaration of rolling up snake eyes and watching your opponent cringe as those nasty skulls stare back.

[ May 31, 2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ]

[Michael Dorosh]

cool! Thanks! I take it the back of the box is identical to the orange one, save the colour? Many thanks for satisfying my curiousity.

The snake eyes dice sound pretty cool too!

[Snake Eyes]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...I take it the back of the box is identical to the orange one...

Actually it's just black, no artwork at all. I think Avalon Hill rushed it out for the convention season (and sales).

[gredeker]

I still play ASL in addition to CM, although I'm not into it as much as some of my opponents. I recently finished up a Pegasus Bridge campaign game (won as the Brits, but it came down to the wire) and this is the kind of thing where ASL beats CM hands-down. Captured equipment, weird 21st Panzer AFVs, purchasing reinforcement groups, church steeples, entrenchment attempts, glider landings, occupying enemy bunkers, ZOC/frontline determination rules that make sense, etc.

I also prefer the FTF camaraderie of ASL, and it gives me a reason to travel and see some old college friends. Doing all one's gaming from home isn't always the best thing in the world.

One time, Howard almost melted the barrel of the HMG he was directing - got ROF 5 or 6 times in a row, wiping out a platoon attempting to advance along the trees between the two towns. One of my six-pounders also went into fully automatic mode, getting rate at least 6 times, while retaining HE (depletion number of 7) for the first four shots. Stopped a flanking force cold.

[Michael Dorosh]

redeker, I think the thing I like the most about ASL that isn't in CM is the modelling of machine guns, and the ability to

spray fire

sustain fire

cross fire

etc.

And to truly be able to dominate ground with an MG.

[ June 01, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Grisha]

Michael,

I've gone to Tom's site(no-frames), but am unable to locate the GUI download.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Grisha:

Michael,

I've gone to Tom's site(no-frames), but am unable to locate the GUI download.

Tom has been having some server problems - the site has been down for a while - and he also has several projects in the pipeline ahead of mine. I can't speak for him, but those are the facts as I know it. If you have a good broadband email account, get a hold of me at madorosh@shaw.ca and I can email the files to you - about 7 MB in total, broken up into 5 or 6 zip files.