Limits on modding?

[Spleen]

Is it possible to modify the models?

I would love to put my modeling skills to the test.

I really dont see a model archive or directory. Is it even possible?

I was just thinking how incredible it would be if you could make your own models then alter the rules for the model.. The mods would be endless. Vietnam, Middle East, Falklands, Korea, etc etc

[ParaBellum]

The only thing you can modify are the BMPs, you cannot change the 3d-models or create new ones since they are hard coded into the game.

Same goes for the technical data of the models.

[JPSeiler]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

The only thing you can modify are the BMPs, you cannot change the 3d-models or create new ones since they are hard coded into the game.

But with the next patch they replace shared models with new ones, so it is maybe not that "hardcode" than we think.

Look at schoerners SS-Loader and Dienstgradpatch,

no incompatibely with other versions and it works fine.

Iam looking forward to see someone "looking deeper" in the patch when it comes, maybe we have a chance.

When the fileformat of the models in CMBB are "custom file formats" than i see no real chance for making new models for CMBB without the help of BTF, but if they are 3ds files (and when im looking at the "UVW Maps from the models i think they are) than we might have a chance for making new models and including than in the game with so called "inofficiel patches" like schoerners Dienstgradpatch ...

I allready asked BTF if it is possible to release something like a SDK (standard developing kit) for models but got no answer so far, and i have the feeling i will not get any answer in the futher ... .

Jean-Pierre

Sorry for my not so good english

[illo]

Originally posted by JPSeiler:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ParaBellum:

The only thing you can modify are the BMPs, you cannot change the 3d-models or create new ones since they are hard coded into the game.

But with the next patch they replace shared models with new ones, so it is maybe not that "hardcode" than we think.

Look at schoerners SS-Loader and Dienstgradpatch,

no incompatibely with other versions and it works fine.

Iam looking forward to see someone "looking deeper" in the patch when it comes, maybe we have a chance.

When the fileformat of the models in CMBB are "custom file formats" than i see no real chance for making new models for CMBB without the help of BTF, but if they are 3ds files (and when im looking at the "UVW Maps from the models i think they are) than we might have a chance for making new models and including than in the game with so called "inofficiel patches" like schoerners Dienstgradpatch ...

I allready asked BTF if it is possible to release something like a SDK (standard developing kit) for models but got no answer so far, and i have the feeling i will not get any answer in the futher ... .

Jean-Pierre

Sorry for my not so good english</font>

[JPSeiler]

Originally posted by illo:

There are certain reasons BTS wouldnt like that.

And they are ?

I mean what is the problem with this ... ? You cant include new vehicles, its just a grafikal thing ... it doesnt affects the game itself, and as we all heared BTS is not going to make for all shared models new ones to replace them.

Whats the problem when the community would do the rest?

Jean-Pierre

[ October 14, 2002, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: JPSeiler ]

[gunnergoz]

I believe what is being referred to is the sensitive issue of disassembling copyrighted software code, compounding the matter by altering said code and then putting it back into the public domain.

BFC is not about to make their source code go public (my opinion) and I'm frankly surprised that they have not objected to this altering of the infamous WaffenGrenadier (pseudo SS) portions in the European version of the code.

BTW, there's more to the models than their 3-d aspects: IIRC there is the matter of including their armor specifications, armament and performance characteristics into the game's ultra-voluminous database. In other words, it is no trifling thing.

Lets face it, except for the skins (bit-maps), CM is basically a closed system. That's OK by me considering the work these guys put into the product.

[ October 14, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: gunnergoz ]

[Spleen]

You shouldnt HAVE to disassemble it.. Quake1-3 uses archives which have the models right there.. you just open it up and then insert the model.. The game was written to make modding easy.. Battlefront should do the same with CMBB. The possibilites are endless.

Its been shown time and time and time again that allowing the community the ability to modify a game increases its longevity..

Look at Valve Software's Half Life. The game was released before 2000, and due to the great modification done by a 3rd party "Counterstrike" it remains one of the most played online games today.. Valve Software realized the potential here.. Players still have to buy the game to play the mod..

It makes LESS sense to limit the ability of a game to be modified.

Think about how much more longevity CMBB would have if in one year someone released Combat Mission: Operation Vietnam? All new models, data, maps, graphics.. all using the CMBB engine.

Basically you would have people buying the game just to play the mod.

It makes a ton of sense of keep the game open for modding.. Every game that has done this has profited.

[ October 14, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Spleen ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JPSeiler:

I allready asked BTF if it is possible to release something like a SDK (standard developing kit) for models but got no answer so far, and i have the feeling i will not get any answer in the futher ... .

Jean-Pierre

They've answered that several times, actually, the answer was it was possible but they will never do it, for reasons that are obvious.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Spleen:

Think about how much more longevity CMBB would have if in one year someone released Combat Mission: Operation Vietnam? All new models, data, maps, graphics.. all using the CMBB engine.

What does BFC get from this?

Personally, I wouldn't buy a game with the intention solely of using third party mods - my money is on the guys who get paid to do this for a living - not the guys who spend evenings and weekends throwing stuff together and putting out their wares for free on the internet. I trust BFC's research far more than I would the latter case, or would if I was in the situation of buying a game based solely on using these third party mods. Being profit driven isn't always the best indicator of fidelity, historical accuracy, etc., but it is an indicator of some sort at least.

[karch]

The models are not 3D model files, they are embedded into the application and can not be extracted or replaced by anyone other than BFI.

One of the main reasons is they aren't willing to give THOUSANDS of hours of 3D modeling to competitors for free. If you can go in and replace the 3D models, then you'd be able to extract the 3D models and do anything with them and they have definitely said they will never allow that. In addition, it would be a TON of time to change CMBB to handle this if it could be done at all.

SO... the original reason is probably so people don't steal their models, and the reason now is that the game probably can't support the change, or it would take too long to change even if they could.

Heck, I'd love to have 3D models of tanks etc for file icons and just to play with, but it just isn't going to happen. Probably not in any future games either. That's just too much programming to give away for free to the stealing community and competition.

[JPSeiler]

Originally posted by Spleen:

Its been shown time and time and time again that allowing the community the ability to modify a game increases its longevity.

i agree

Originally posted by Spleen:

Look at Valve Software's Half Life. The game was released before 2000, and due to the great modification done by a 3rd party "Counterstrike" it remains one of the most played online games today.. Valve Software realized the potential here.. Players still have to buy the game to play the mod..

It makes LESS sense to limit the ability of a game to be modified.

Think about how much more longevity CMBB would have if in one year someone released Combat Mission: Operation Vietnam? All new models, data, maps, graphics.. all using the CMBB engine.

Basically you would have people buying the game just to play the mod.

It makes a ton of sense of keep the game open for modding.. Every game that has done this has profited.

Thats a diffrent story, i dont think that BTS will anyday allow the comunity to make a whole "new game" based on their engine.

I mean than you could make a mod covering afrika

or spanish civil war etc pp or how you said the vietnam war.

And BTS could maybe not sell new Games based on this scenario, even with the Engine rewritte, or atleast maybe not that much, cause many people would use the mod and think "Hey why should i buy the new game when i allready can play this scenario with a mod?"

They point im talking about is only the 3D models not less not more!

This would defently dont change the game itself just the grafiks.

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

BFC is not about to make their source code go public (my opinion) and I'm frankly surprised that they have not objected to this altering of the infamous WaffenGrenadier (pseudo SS) portions in the European version of the code.

I think that they dont have to release the source code, just the export tools? (for the 3D model format of CMBB when they have their own format) or maybe their modeler? or maybe the information how to creat correct models for CMBB (how to say the engine wich parts have to rotate likle turrets etc pp).

I have absolut no information with wich software they created the models, so i can only gues what they could release when they would allow the community to replace models with new ones.

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

BTW, there's more to the models than their 3-d aspects: IIRC there is the matter of including their armor specifications, armament and performance characteristics into the game's ultra-voluminous database. In other words, it is no trifling thing.

Iam talking about replacing shared models with the correct models, not including new vehicles.

I mean they are not going to replace all shared models as they said.

And also i would like to replace some models with my own cause some models have minor errors.

Jean-Piere

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by JPSeiler:

But with the next patch they replace shared models with new ones, so it is maybe not that "hardcode" than we think.

Look at schoerners SS-Loader and Dienstgradpatch,

no incompatibely with other versions and it works fine.

Big difference between using a hex editor to modify a couple of strings and altering the 3D models, which are embedded in binary form into the EXE.

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by JPSeiler:

They point im talking about is only the 3D models not less not more!

This would defently dont change the game itself just the grafiks.

Unfortunately you would also need the data associated with that model in order for the game engine to use it correctly (i.e. armor penetration, hit calcs, etc.).

One other thing to consider is compatibility. How can you play PBEM or TCP/IP with incompatible versions of the EXE. You have such and such a model that has been added or altered that your opponent may not but he does have this other model plus the Magic Orcs that can defeat King Tigers with one blow and so on.

Keith

[ October 14, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: sitzkrieg ]

[akdavis]

My only gripe would be that if they're not going to correct all the shared models, then they should allow the community to do so. If you're not going to include the model for an object, just don't include it at all. Placeholders are, in my opinion, very unprofessional and reflect an unfinished product. Solution, take the time to include all the models, or help the community to do so. Leaving CMBB eternally unfinished while working on the engine rewrite (which I'm sure we won't see for at least 2 years) would be a true disappointment.

I can't imagine anyone in this community who would not purchase the next BFC product simply because they were able to change the look of the current game. The people who care about this are the same people who are BFC's most loyal customers. Seems more like corporate paranoia than a legitimate fear. If I was BFC, I'd be much more concerned about loyal fans being disappointed by the unfinished state of CMBB and perhaps shying away from the next BFC product.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Spleen:

Its been shown time and time and time again that allowing the community the ability to modify a game increases its longevity..

Look at Valve Software's Half Life. The game was released before 2000, and due to the great modification done by a 3rd party "Counterstrike" it remains one of the most played online games today.. Valve Software realized the potential here.. Players still have to buy the game to play the mod..

FWIW, it hasn't been shown "time and time again" that allowing the community to modify the game will increase its longevity. People often claim this, and always cite counterstrike as an example, but it's simply not true as a general rule. It was true in the case of half-life. AFAIK, that's the only game that any measureable numer of people buy to play modded.

There are other games that have been improved by community mods, but this has had very little effect on their longevity.

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by akdavis:

My only gripe would be that if they're not going to correct all the shared models, then they should allow the community to do so. If you're not going to include the model for an object, just don't include it at all. Placeholders are, in my opinion, very unprofessional and reflect an unfinished product.

BTS got raked over the coals for not including some models in CM:BO (US M-16 Quad .50 AA Halftrack for example). They didn't have time to include it so it was dropped. At least with CM:BB the placeholders allow for BTS to quickly add the correct models in a patch.

[akdavis]

Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

BTS got raked over the coals for not including some models in CM:BO (US M-16 Quad .50 AA Halftrack for example). They didn't have time to include it so it was dropped. At least with CM:BB the placeholders allow for BTS to quickly add the correct models in a patch.

Yet many are saying that they are not going include all the models, even in forthcoming patches. The need to work on the engine rewrite has been mentioned as the reason for cutting corners on several occasions. I believe even one of the BTS crew said that they are not going to include all the models.

[ October 14, 2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: akdavis ]

[JPSeiler]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

They've answered that several times, actually, the answer was it was possible but they will never do it, for reasons that are obvious.

Thank you for that informition

Originally posted by karch :

The models are not 3D model files, they are embedded into the application

From where you know this? Is this official?

Anyway interesting information

Originally posted by karch :

and can not be extracted or replaced by anyone other than BFI..

or the community when they would release the tools ...

Originally posted by karch :

One of the main reasons is they aren't willing to give THOUSANDS of hours of 3D modeling to competitors for free. If you can go in and replace the 3D models, then you'd be able to extract the 3D models and do anything with them and they have definitely said they will never allow that. In addition, it would be a TON of time to change CMBB to handle this if it could be done at all.

When i have a export plug in for 3D max, i can only make for example a .mdl file (halflife file format).

When i have no import plug in i cant import .mdl files in 3D Max ... .

Originally posted by karch :

SO... the original reason is probably so people don't steal their models, and the reason now is that the game probably can't support the change, or it would take too long to change even if they could.

good point, but how i said above it would be difficult to export the models out of CMBB with out a export plug in.

Originally posted by karch :

Heck, I'd love to have 3D models of tanks etc for file icons and just to play with, but it just isn't going to happen. Probably not in any future games either. That's just too much programming to give away for free to the stealing community and competition.

There is no extra programming, i mean BTS has allready the tools to replace the shared models with new ones ... .

Without this they could never do the patch.

Originally posted by akdavis:

My only gripe would be that if they're not going to correct all the shared models, then they should allow the community to do so.

thats the point

Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

Unfortunately you would also need the data associated with that model in order for the game engine to use it correctly (i.e. armor penetration, hit calcs, etc.).

Hmmm how is it than possible that we have SdKfz 251/17s (with the 20mm L/55) displayed in game as the 251/1 and they work?

I mean do you really know that the grafiks and the "vehicle stats" are putted together ?

I think the models are separted files ...

Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

One other thing to consider is compatibility. How can you play PBEM or TCP/IP with incompatible versions of the EXE. You have such and such a model that has been added or altered that your opponent may not but he does have this other model plus the Magic Orcs that can defeat King Tigers with one blow and so on.

Keith

Yes i thinked this TOO, but look at the Dienstgradepatch from schoerner, its changing the exe and i can play PBEM / TCP/IP games with my "diffrent exe".

The SS-Loader is not changing the exe but he changes WG to SS in the memory, thats how i understood this, im not surte about this, im just a grafikan not a programer

And i think that noone wants some stupid grafikreplacments like "Magic Orcs" (note i say grafik replacements cause i dont want to change the STATS itself, just the grafik ... ).

Jean-Pierre

[ October 14, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: JPSeiler ]

[Hertston]

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

I believe what is being referred to is the sensitive issue of disassembling copyrighted software code, compounding the matter by altering said code and then putting it back into the public domain.

BFC is not about to make their source code go public (my opinion) and I'm frankly surprised that they have not objected to this altering of the infamous WaffenGrenadier (pseudo SS) portions in the European version of the code.

Spleen has it spot on. The gaming world would be a very different place if the likes of Valve, Epic and iD had objected too strenously to people messing with the source code (it was never "public", mind). As to the WG point, the phrase "if you are in a hole, stop digging" rather springs to mind. Objections to that would (rightly) been seen as petty and pointless - at the end of the day all that's happening is that the code is being restored to what it was before cdv messed it up.

Wise developers encourage modding - source code and all. Nothing sells more games than a good mod (as Spleen says look at Half-Life - how many more did they sell because people wanted to play Counter-strike ?) Mods won't effect subsequent game sales for BFC either. No Q2 mod hurt Q3 sales, and a little closer to home, no CC3 mod ever effected sales of CC4 and CC5.

[ October 14, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Hertston ]

[Captain Wacky]

Look guys, several people here have stated that changing the models in CMBB is impossible without changing other data characterisitics of the vehicles. It's just not as easy as dropping in a new model while keeping everything else the same. If it was, I'm sure BFC would be much more open to the idea of letting people mod 3D vehicles (I wondered why they weren't before I learned this), but now we can all see where they're coming from. Changing models would alter portions of the code which would probably make versions of CMBB incompatible with each other, wreaking havoc on multiplay.

[akdavis]

Yet vehicles in the game right now share other vehicles' models, yet have their own distinct data. Seems in these cases that it really is a case of just needing to drop in a new model.

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by akdavis:

Yet vehicles in the game right now share other vehicles' models, yet have their own distinct data. Seems in these cases that it really is a case of just needing to drop in a new model.

In the case of the "spaceholder" models in CM:BB, yes. However, what Spleen and others are asking is the ability to stretch the game engine beyond WWII and the current models and data.

I guess if it would help BTS get all the models finished that are currently in CM:BB, I would love to see some community support. I too was a bit disappointed by the "spaceholders" but figured BTS would get to them all in a patch (which I still hope). However, I just don't see them going for it.

[Tripwire6]

I tend to agree with the people who say this would play hell with multiplayer games. Also, I'm guessing if this was ever possible, there would be M1 Abrams tanks ruling the European soil before the first day was over.

[JPSeiler]

Uhm i reallyhave the feeling that

a.) my engish is that bad that noone understand me

or

b.)noone understand what i mean.

I just want to replace the GRAFIKS of

a.) shared models that will be not replaced from BTS

and

b.) the models with errors.

With models i mean the GRAFIKS the thing you see in game the lil tanks, infantrie, the 251/17 wich is actually showed as a 251/1 in game to bring a example.

Again i just want to make new historical accurate models wich replace the models in game wich are shared or wich are not correct, i DONT want to change the vehicles stats, the armour or make new vehicles, no f*cking (excuse me) Abrahms, no bunnies with guns, no fantasy orcs ...

Im sorry for my "bad behaivor" its not the way i normaly write, but i just get angry when guys telling here that some idiots want to include Abrahms or Orcs ...

Jean-Pierre

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by JPSeiler:

Uhm i reallyhave the feeling that

a.) my engish is that bad that noone understand me

or

b.)noone understand what i mean.

I just want to replace the GRAFIKS of

a.) shared models that will be not replaced from BTS

and

b.) the models with errors.

With models i mean the GRAFIKS the thing you see in game the lil tanks, infantrie, the 251/17 wich is actually showed as a 251/1 in game to bring a example.

Again i just want to make new historical accurate models wich replace the models in game wich are shared or wich are not correct, i DONT want to change the vehicles stats, the armour or make new vehicles, no f*cking (excuse me) Abrahms, no bunnies with guns, no fantasy orcs ...

Im sorry for my "bad behaivor" its not the way i normaly write, but i just get angry when guys telling here that some idiots want to include Abrahms or Orcs ...

Jean-Pierre

Sorry if I offended you. I was just making a very wild example not to be taken seriously.

Spleen in the opening post of this thread stated he wanted to expand the game through mods (Vietnam, Modern Battles, etc.) and that is more who some of the respones were directed to.

Again, I would like to see correct models for all of the "spaceholders" in CM:BB as well. If the community can help speed this up, I'm all for it. But it is for BTS to decide and I don't think they are going to go for the idea.

I think correcting models might be problematic for some of the reasons people have already mentioned in this thread, incompatible games being number one. No one, outside of BTS, knows what changing models or data will do to program execution.

BTW, what models do you think have errors? Just curious. Even if you can't correct these yourself you might want to mention something to BTS so they can and everyone will benefit.

Keith