Amazing energetic soviet crew commanders

[Wol]

I played a QB which included 3 assorted T-26s. The enemy were nearly all German inf. When I let these beasts loose at about 400m on the helpless Jerrys, an odd thing happeded. The crew commanders kept popping up and down like yo-yos. No really, sometimes 2 or 3 times per turn. They would do this even if I told them to button up! They were Reg and Vet, and must have enormous biceps (fit or what!) They would fire the odd round, maybe the MG, up scope, maybe acquire new target, then downscope etc etc endlessly through the turns. Naturally one was eventually shocked by rifle fire, but if they will keep hopping up and down like AOD with a crippled sub, (you remember, flat out porpoising while you try to make repairs) what do they expect. They could all actually see lots of targets even when buttoned up, so I do not think they needed to surface to acquire targets. Seriously, is this a bug? It seems so to me. When I say 'button up there is a whole rifle batallion 400 yards away', I expect my loyal crew commanders to obey! Not pop up and down several times a turn trying to get there head shot off.

[Capt. Toleran]

I could be wrong, but I think this is also meant to simulate the tanks communicating with eachother or checking for orders. Since at this point most Soviet tanks don't have radios, there really isn't any way for the subordinates to check with their commander for orders without sticking their heads out of the tanks.

So here's your choice:

They can button up and stay buttoned up, and become static metal pillboxes for the rest of the game because they're too scared to stick their heads out for orders, and don't know where to go. Buttoned up, they have no way of knowing what is required of them.

Or:

They can be a little brave, stick their heads out occasionally, check for orders, and actually move around the battlefield and fight.

German tanks don't have this problem, because they have radios.

[ October 02, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Capt. Toleran ]

[benpark]

It sounds hilarious. I liked the post title. Sounds like a revolting new version of "The Full Monty"

[Wol]

Are that Uberman and his radio. I suppose all T-26m39 will be eqiuipped with radios anyway?

I do not mid the occasional glance to look for flags, but every 20 seconds????

[Pvt. Ryan]

I brought up this issue a few days ago. As you may know, vehicles with two man turrets button up when firing the main gun because the the commander doubles as the gunner. Once the commander feels it is safe he will pop up to look around. He will duck down again when the gun is ready to fire. If the tank is continuosly targeting an enemy unit it will stay buttoned until the target is destroyed or goes out of LOS. Soviet tanks without radios will remain unbuttoned as much as they can so they can stay in command. However, when it comes to tanks with radios, I think they should stay buttoned or unbuttoned per the player's orders.

OK, that is what they want us to believe. I did a little research on my own and I found out that WWII tank crews ate an unusual diet that consisted primarily of cabbage and beans. As a result, tanks could not stay buttoned for long due to frequent bouts of serious flatulence. The crews felt it was safer to expose themselves to the hot lead flying about the battlefield rather than to inhale the noxious fumes inside the tank. In addition, they had to vent the methane gas, otherwise there was serious risk of a bew-up if the tank was penetrated by an AT round. Now you know the real story.

[Renaud]

What Ryan said...it's a two man turret issue where the TC doubles as the gunner or loader.

I do wish there was a way to over-ride the AI's efforts to stay unbuttoned. Usually this is good behavior, but the player needs to be able to override it in cases where you suspect snipers, MG or incoming which may be dangerous to crews. For instance, you don't want to risk the crew of your crack tiger tank since you have other vehicles/troops doing the spotting anyway.

Possibly BTS could just make a manual 'button-up' order result in the tank AI not unbuttoning until that command is rescinded through a manual 'unbutton' command. Once 'unbuttoned' the tank AI would revert to normal button/unbutton behavior based on incoming threats.

Ren

[Liebchen]

Originally posted by Renaud:

...you don't want to risk the crew of your crack tiger tank since you have other vehicles/troops doing the spotting anyway.

So you are in support of universal spotting? Or just a gamey bastard?

Seriously, though, it seems to me that the TC of that Tiger would need to get the lowdown on his surroundings periodically by peaking out. He'd need to make sure there aren't other targets out of view of his periscope or whatever he uses. Don't want to be snuck up upon by tank-killers, do we? And what about when he offs that target; who will be next?

I would think that there would be times when the TC simply has to chance the odd sniper shot to get the job done.

[MikeyD]

Pop quiz: You're stuck on the battlefield in a crappy tank, acting as both commander and gunner, with no radio and almost blind when buttoned. What do you do? What DO you do?

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Pop quiz: You're stuck on the battlefield in a crappy tank, acting as both commander and gunner, with no radio and almost blind when buttoned. What do you do? What DO you do?

Use the Force, Karl Malden.

[Renaud]

My point was that if you know you will be killed by that sniper that has been offing your TC's, or a big arty strike is coming in, you might not want the AI unbuttoning to smell the roses at that particular point in time. Or if you need to make a quick dash through a city street and come out on the other side with your head still attached to your shoulders. Other than those limited situations, I like the new AI button/unbutton behavior.

Have only once had a slight problem with it: as in my previous example, I had a crack tiger platoon commander that kept unbuttoning even though a 20mm cannon was putting him at great risk. His platoon was in radio contact with a support company of PzIIIN's and L's screening 500 meters forward so there was no need to be unbuttoned. That is, until the PzIII commanders started screaming something over the company net about a pair of KV-2 'Animal-Killers' on a hill. Wimps!

Ren

[Sigurd]

Mikeyd, in tanks equipped with cuppola, can't we say the visibilty is acceptable for the TC, when under heavy infantery fire ? I read the german ones, in "trash" form, were rather good.

So we could allow "forced button" order in tanks with cuppola and radio.

[Wol]

Just to re-iterate my main worry. The endless (in a single round) opening up and closing down, whenm uder fire form a rifle batallion at 400 m. Surely I can tell them to button up?

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Wol:

Just to re-iterate my main worry. The endless (in a single round) opening up and closing down, whenm uder fire form a rifle batallion at 400 m. Surely I can tell them to button up?

If they were consistently buttoned up they wouldn't even see that rifle battaliion coming

[Bruno Weiss]

Well sort of the same concern. In a scenario I was playing, the German TC's would not stay buttoned up. I'd order them to button up, next thing you know their up looking around. I'd then reorder them to button up, and sure enough they'd be back up gawking around. Till finally in one instance of repeatedly ignoring the order to button, the TC got what he deserved. Snipered by a Russian. Whatever is at play here, is defeating the purpose of the button up order.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Well sort of the same concern. In a scenario I was playing, the German TC's would not stay buttoned up. I'd order them to button up, next thing you know their up looking around. I'd then reorder them to button up, and sure enough they'd be back up gawking around. Till finally in one instance of repeatedly ignoring the order to button, the TC got what he deserved. Snipered by a Russian. Whatever is at play here, is defeating the purpose of the button up order.

You have to realize that you are essentialy Hitler ..er the Oberkommandeur des Heeres.. telling a TC to put his head down, that TC however obedient doesn't want to get sneaked up on by infantry or shot to pieces by an AT gun. So he has to use his head.

[Bruno Weiss]

He did, he used it to stop a 7.62mm bullet. Which, was my point. What is the sense in having a "button up" command if they won't stay buttoned up? Just let the AI do it then. The "button up" command is supposed to result in the little feller doing what the big gorilla wit the keyboard says.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

He did, he used it to stop a 7.62mm bullet.

I guess he took his chances, and we'll have to respcepta his choice of somefink.

Which, was my point. What is the sense in having a "button up" command if they won't stay buttoned up?

To get the TC to button up when something nasty is about to happen (like incoming arty), and to get him to stop being a coward and spot that AT gun that has been plinking your guns despite the hail of bullets coming his way.

Just let the AI do it then. The "button up" command is supposed to result in the little feller doing what the big gorilla wit the keyboard says.

It's a balance issue, the player can tell a TC to button up but ultimatly self-preservation will prevail (the threat of AT-weapons is bigger than that of rifles after all).

Maybe the 'button up' command should be tied to a timer to make it more effective in getting the tank to traverse a certain area buttoned up, but at least it's better compromise -and more realistic- then only being able to unbutton between turns.. especially on the advance.

[ October 04, 2002, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Maybe, but I wish they fix it or do somefink. I wonder if it the AI ties it to other factors. I.e., whether the vehicle is moving or not, under fire or not, hunting or other commands?

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Maybe, but I wish they fix it or do somefink.

Maybe the command needs a little fine-tunink?

I wonder if it the AI ties it to other factors. I.e., whether the vehicle is moving or not, under fire or not, hunting or other commands?

The tacAI-TC may not be very smart, but he isn't stupid enough to pop his head out when under continous fire (that's the problem with those darn snipers, they only shoot hwin his head is out). But I don't think buttoning behavior is tied to anything else (haven't paid enough attention to be 100% sure though).

It would make sense that if the tank is hunting/moving to contact the TC would pop-out ASAP and if you issue a move-fast order he should keep his head down and his speed up (that would also give a quick n' easy way of keeping them buttoned-up in cities or when you expect snipers.

[ October 04, 2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[jmbunnelle]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD:

Pop quiz: You're stuck on the battlefield in a crappy tank, acting as both commander and gunner, with no radio and almost blind when buttoned. What do you do? What DO you do?

Use the Force, Karl Malden.</font>