l3w53r Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Just wondering cause I just found their usefullness in defending towns. 13 men and almost the same weapons as a fallschrimichjager squad. 703 points per company, including 2 hmg's and 2 81mm's. and oh yeah, is their purpose the same as the purpose of sturgruppes in ww1? I mean for exploiting breakthroughs? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Originally posted by l3w53r: and oh yeah, is their purpose the same as the purpose of sturgruppes in ww1? I mean for exploiting breakthroughs? thanksNot exploiting, creating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer_Meyer Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 They are not gamey at all! Sturmgruppes alreay cost 700 points for a company, compared that to a Rifle or even a FJ company, the Sturmgruppes cost double if not tripple that of a rifle company. In a 1500 point ME, if you puy the sturmgruppe (SG) thats pretty much it for infantry. At 700 points it leaves no room for additional infantry maybe another SMG platoon, but thats all. One has to know how to use the SGs, a player who doesn't know how to use SGs properly will loose 700 points in one or two turns. SGs are affective, but their price is a great deal to consider before purchasing them. Sure they have 13 men, but those 13 men die as fast as 8 men under a 105mm VT barrage. Unlike SMG platoons which can be bought cheap and in big numbers the SGs cannot. In the end SGs are not gamey, the price tag is a great deal to consider before purchasing them and one only gets a company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I vote gamey, and the way most people use smg platoons you would think the wermacht had a shortage of K-98 rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: I vote gamey, and the way most people use smg platoons you would think the wermacht had a shortage of K-98 rifles.If you play intelligently an opponent with ALL SMG platoons is no more difficult to beat than a player with Rifle platoons. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I agree, never has an SMG squad ever been more effective than a regular rifle squad against a Sherman 200m away. Tactics my good fellows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Originally posted by jshandorf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: I vote gamey, and the way most people use smg platoons you would think the wermacht had a shortage of K-98 rifles.If you play intelligently an opponent with ALL SMG platoons is no more difficult to beat than a player with Rifle platoons. Jeff</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Originally posted by jshandorf: If you play intelligently JeffHey, I wanna try that. what do i do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 I'm not saying SMG squads are always used gamey, but 95% of the time they are. I'm not disgruntled for losing to them or anything, i always win against gamey opponents, it's quite easy, but it takes away from the fun of it all for me. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who is used to seeing people constantly use Motorized infantry squads, with no transports for them, mixed in with pioneer, smg, and or paratroop squad all mixed into one on a single battlefield. Who cares if i win easily, the game is so gross to me it does'nt matter, it's not very fun, luckily i found a very good opponent who has a similar taste in QB's as i do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apex Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 From my experience, Sturmkompanien are the unit suffering most from CMBO modelling. They're high priced but only field three squads same as other units. However, incoming fire is per squad, so if you pick twice the number of regular troops, you'll end up with one squad not targeted and able to return fire accuratly where your one Sturmgruppe with a handful less people is surpressed and doing nothing. Waste of points, IMHO, and historically not suited for most scenarios either. apex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer_Meyer Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Hey, If you hate plyaing people who use gamey tactics in QBs, play a pre-made scenario and play that instead. A double blind scenario, which neither one of you has played is the best to battle it out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by Rommel22: Hey, If you hate plyaing people who use gamey tactics in QBs, play a pre-made scenario and play that instead. A double blind scenario, which neither one of you has played is the best to battle it out on.There is nothing gamey about tactics, where did i mention tactics? If you re-read what i posted you'll see that my complaint was about gamey PLAYERS CHOOSING AN UN-REALISTIC ARRAY OF MIS-MATCHED ELITE FORCES. MOTORIZED INFANTRY SQUADS MISSING THEIR TRANSPORTS. Ever see any tank crews going into battle without their tanks? :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 ...MOTORIZED INFANTRY SQUADS MISSING THEIR TRANSPORTS...So you're saying that it's "gamey" if I buy a motorized panzergrenadier platoon but then don't go to the vehicles selection and buy them a halftrack as well? I assumed they were dismounted infantry. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by Tiger: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...MOTORIZED INFANTRY SQUADS MISSING THEIR TRANSPORTS...So you're saying that it's "gamey" if I buy a motorized panzergrenadier platoon but then don't go to the vehicles selection and buy them a halftrack as well? I assumed they were dismounted infantry. -john</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by apex: From my experience, Sturmkompanien are the unit suffering most from CMBO modelling. They're high priced but only field three squads same as other units. However, incoming fire is per squad, so if you pick twice the number of regular troops, you'll end up with one squad not targeted and able to return fire accuratly where your one Sturmgruppe with a handful less people is surpressed and doing nothing. Waste of points, IMHO, and historically not suited for most scenarios either. apexThis may be more of a problem with real-life assault companies than with CMBO's modeling of them. They were used extensively in the battle of the bulge to lead off assaults on various villages (you can read about them in the green book history of the bulge), and they were not very effective at all. They basically either get cut down at long range, hit by artillery, or both. Sometimes one squad makes it into a building in the village, but none of the follow up platoons do, causing the assault platoon to eventually surrender. This is pretty much the way the work in CMBO, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by Tiger: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...MOTORIZED INFANTRY SQUADS MISSING THEIR TRANSPORTS...So you're saying that it's "gamey" if I buy a motorized panzergrenadier platoon but then don't go to the vehicles selection and buy them a halftrack as well? I assumed they were dismounted infantry. -john</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer_Meyer Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 By Gamey tactics I really meant gamey units, nontheless, if you don't want these SMG vs British Airborne and Tigers vs Sherman 76s, play some good pre-made scenarios so none of you know what side has what. Works like a charm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Let me clarify: I assumed the motorized infantry bought w/o vehicles were assumed to be dismounted from their vehicles for this fight and that there was no requirement to have to purchase their transport (trucks, halftracks, or motorcycles, horses, whatever) as well. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by Tiger: Let me clarify: I assumed the motorized infantry bought w/o vehicles were assumed to be dismounted from their vehicles for this fight and that there was no requirement to have to purchase their transport (trucks, halftracks, or motorcycles, horses, whatever) as well. -johnPanzergrenadiers would only dismount if A) they encounted enemy forces, there transports where destroyed or C) there transport was out of fuel/bogged down etc. If you buy moterized infantry units its fine not to have transport, but if you get Panzergrenadiers without any it could be seen as gamey. [ January 31, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 A) they encountered enemy forces You mean like, say... every battle in CM! As an exclusively Axis player, I am sick of tired of hearing people debate the German Infantry and what is gamey when in the battles I've played not once have I faced Polish, Canadian or French forces! Shaddap already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by Herr Kruger: A) they encountered enemy forces You mean like, say... every battle in CM! As an exclusively Axis player, I am sick of tired of hearing people debate the German Infantry and what is gamey when in the battles I've played not once have I faced Polish, Canadian or French forces! Shaddap already!Yes, but how often do you encounter the enemy on turn one of a QB and/or Scenario? Oh and one other thing, I can't shutup, I was never talking...hehe [ January 31, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 For meeting engagements the out is simple, I can just rationalize that my troops know they are about to encounter the enemy as they are plugging a hole in the face of an advance and thus have already dismounted from their transports. Voila! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Interesting point of view, but not every game is a meeting engagement. Now I am not saying its gamey, its didn't happen very often thats all. If your on the attack, what is better. Having your Panzergrenadiers walking, run etc. or to have them loaded on the HT, safe from enemy small arms fire? Now this all depends on terrain and other variables, but for the most part its a good idea to use those HT that come with Panzergrenadiers is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeo Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Is it gamey to play a game against another opponent? Is it gamey to sit at a computer and send pixelated soldiers with pixelated mothers, pixelated fathers, pixelated wives, and pixelated children to their pixelated deaths? I'm glad BTS has decided to base the game on real life statistis to the best of their ability. However, Gamey Schmamey. <big>GAME ON!</big> Hello!? It's a Game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 If it is gamey to use VG, GJ, Fallschim, SG, dismounted mounted PzrGr, Tigers, KTs, Panthers, anything with Jagd in front of it, Hetzers, Jumbos, M7s for Direct Fire, too much arty, not enough arty, lead spoons, and Crocodiles, then why the hell play the game? You just limited the game to 2 rifle squads firing from max range supported by vanilla Shermans and Mark IVs. Oh, and smoke. Lots of smoke. Occasionaly people like to try the other units. That's why they're there. And if (god forbid) someone on a whim backs American Glider Troops with Armor: SUCK IT UP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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