infantry

[TCP]

When you decide to buy a platoon what kind of infantry you buy? Example: rifle 44 vs gebirdsjarer vs sturmkompanie... who is the best?

[Wreck]

If you want historically accurate forces, buy vanilla rifle platoons. These were by far the majority squad of all nationalities.

If you want superior price/performance, buy the most SMGs you can. SMGs cost the same as rifles, but drastically outperform them.

MP44s cost 1/2 point more, but are still a good deal. LMGs cost quite a bit; I think their price is fair. Some people like two LMGs per squad. This is probably a wash or a good idea for mostly rifle squads. But if you are losing an SMG to man an MG you are not getting your money's worth.

Some people like larger squads. I prefer them smaller. It means you have to buy more, of course, but you can do that. You end up with more maneuverable units, which means you are less vulnerable. Of course you must concentrate forces to get a 2-1 to smash an enemy platoon. But you have to do that anyway.

[Specterx]

When playing as the Germans, I almost always buy Waffen-SS Motorized squads. They have a massive amount of firepower and come with a good mix of rifles, MP44's and MP40's, so they are effective at pretty much any range.

I think that the "best" squad in the game is the German Fallschirmjager, which has slightly for FP than the motorized. In relatively small games I stick with the SS Mot., but if you have the points to spare then it's worth it to buy a platoon of FJ as shock troops.

When playing as the Allies your choices are more limited, especially in 1944. In 1945 the American '45 rifle is probably the best choice, they aren't as effective as the german squads, but do come with 12 men (redundancy).

I tend to avoid British squads like the plague, they are badly outmatched under any circumstances and at close range the Germans will eat them for breakfast.

I haven't played the Poles, French or Canadians much so I can't comment on them. People seem to like the American glider and airborne troops. in 1944 those are probably a better choice than the US rifle squads, but in 1945 just stick with the vanilla units.

[Warmaker]

Well, I don't think there's one "best" infantry force in CMBO but there are favorites that some guys here live and die by.

With "elite" formations like Airborne and Panzergrenadiers you get alot of friggin' firepower but at a much higher cost over plain vanilla infantry.

Here's my opinions on the major players' hard "best" units:

* US/UK/Polish: By far, their Airborne/Glider units. They tend towards higher performance in close range fights due to having lots more SMGs.

* Germany: This is where things get complicated due to the sheer variety of infantry to tailor to your needs.

** Heer/Waff.SS Panzergrenadiers (Mot.Inf.): All around, hard hitting firepower that can wittle down any opposition with it's extremely high firepower. MP44s add a damn nice boost but that second MG42 is a killer. A personal favorite selection of mine.

** Fallschirmjager: Like the Pz.Gren., hard hitting but their firepower just "slightly" tapers off a bit at long ranges than the Pz.Gren. units but are devastating in <100m engagements.

** The SMG formations: Personally, I don't like these units. Devastating in very short ranges but anything over 40m then you can count these guys out which is why I dislike them. The big bonus is that they're cheap. Still, I'd prefer a plain vanilla '44 Rifle squad over a SMG one. SMG rushing is not in my SOP.

** Sturmkompanie: Still experimenting with these guys but having lots of guys (13?) in a squad is quite a different change for me compared to the 8-9 man average for most German squads in CMBO. They're not bad in firepower either. Still, to have them you need to buy the whole company.

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Sergeant Saunders]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TCP:

When you decide to buy a platoon what kind of infantry you buy? Example: rifle 44 vs gebirdsjarer vs sturmkompanie... who is the best?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TCP - it really comes down to what you need the infantry for. City fighting, where ranges will be the next building or inside a building, SMGs can't be beat. Open fields, need rifle units w/ MGs. And there is a whole gamut of situations in between.

[Gen-x87H]

I tend to avoid British squads like the plague, they are badly outmatched under any circumstances and at close range the Germans will eat them for breakfast. "

Those British Airborne Units are tough as hell.

Gen

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

Those British Airborne Units are tough as hell.

Gen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll concur with that. I've had a simple QB defending against their assault with an elite Waff.SS unit and we both chewed each other up. I won the fight, but I had a healthy respect for the Brit.AB.

[xerxes]

Cheap is good. I used to buy more expensive (type and quality) but I've since gone downhill. Quanity beats quality in my mind.

I like the german volk (I go for the company because I like the volks rifle too) and german regular infantry. The brit/polish paras are cheaper than regulars.

If I have an extra single platoon to buy I like the motorized or other german squads with long range firepower.

I also prefer the smaller size (7-8 man) squads (brit glider, volks, etc.) for their greater deployment flexibility.

-marc

[Massattack]

Xerxes, how are smaller squads easier to deploy? Do more of them fit into small buildings, or are Halftrack capacities measured by number of men rather than per squad?. Forgive me if I am asking a stupid question, but still quite new to the game, and this may be a new factor to consider when making my infantry selections.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Massattack:

..or are Halftrack capacities measured by number of men rather than per squad?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have a max capacity based on the number of men (14), but also number of units (2). For instance, take an American M3 HT. It can fit a rifle squad (12 men) and a bazooka team (2 men) for a total of 14 men. Yet it won't take 3 sharpshooters (3 men).

Also, some carriers can only embark a team. The German 250/1 and the commonwealth universal carrier are two examples.

[xerxes]

More of them do fit in a building but I was more refering to tactical flexibility. For x points you can buy 3 platoons of more expensive infantry or 4 platoons of cheaper infantry. The extra platoon has the ability to cover a different approach or probe a different area.

Also when you scout with a 1/2 squad, you have much less at risk when there are only 3 or 4 men in the squad. If a 1/2 squad triggers an ambush it will probably be eliminated regardless of size. The smaller scout squad has gathered the same information as the bigger scout squad with less loss.

Bigger squads will suffer more casualties in an arty bombardment.

Bigger squads have more staying power in a prolonged firefight. Also the Platoon leader is proportionally cheaper with big squads.

So, to me, it's a tradeoff between the advantages of raw firepower/muscle (big squads) and advantages of flexibility/risk reduction/recon (small squads). My tactics benefit from the latter. It probably depends on ones playing style as much as anything.

-marc

[Herr Kruger]

Well, I would probably agree the Rifle squads are historically the most numerous... but they don't fit my playstyle plus right now I've only completed five games and so I am in the "trying out" phase...

[l3w53r]

a combination of rifle 44's and engineers(for hard targets,like bunkers and tanks;+ the flamethrowers are good distractions for the enemy and also of some use against disabled enemy armour and supressed MG's) for the americans +zooks.smg squads + a rifle for the germans (they have panzerfausts to take care of the tanks)+ LMG's.

I also buy mortars and sharpshooters and sometimes FO's just to "soften" up the enemy infantry, cover up my appraoch, and at least button up their armour(if not damage 'em or even knock em out).

I dont know how to use american mmg's for attacks so I only buy them for defense(still a newbie)

[Redwolf]

The game is mismodeled in the amount of ammo spent for long-range rifle fire versus SMG short-range fire. For the potential damage done at long range, the rifle should not eat up as much ammo as a SMG squad firing away at almost point black. So, the shorter the range of the squad, the more you get out of the points spent (unless a scenario designer can bump the ammo level of the rifle squads).

Having said this, I have few success with SMG-heavy squads like Gebirgsjaeger or Allied airborne. As allies I usually use rifle because I feel the number of men per point spent (not neccessarily men/squad) is most important. No matter what you do as the Allies, you can only storm what you damaged before and you will loose men and the less points you loose the better.

I rarely play as Axis and then I'm usually in a "special" mood. Fallschirmjaeger or motorized Panzergrenadiere if I'm going to do detailed work with infantry or else SMG Volksgrenadiere, especially on defense when I plan to keep my head down for a long time (not always the case).

The Sturmkompanie should in theory be my piece of cake for the weapon mix, but I cannot spend so much money for a single squad. If you run into something blasty, you loose two squads and if they were 13-men mostly-automatic guys you just suffered significant losses in points, combat power and number of maveuver units. If you loose two 12-men U.S. rifle squads, you loose almost as many men and units, but fewer points (both with regards to victory level and at purchase time to get that extra Priest )

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Redwolf]

I hope you guys would like to continue the discussion, as I wouldn't like to chat to myself only

This evening thoughts are about the extra LMG. Looking closer at the Axis squads I dismissed (for my own usage) Gebirgsjaeger and Security, as the pure Rifle/SMG mix isn't for the distances I fight. Pure SMG is a different weapon and not part of this issue.

I looked Panzergrenadiere (mot) and Rifle 45 (respectivly SS Rifle).

The basic difference is that the Panzergrenadiere have a LMG more and you pay 7 points for the LMG and one man, the Grenadiere have 10 men, the Rifle folks 9.

The LMG is of course a very useful weapon to have in your squad, as it raises the platoon firepower to "secure supression" at 500 meter.

However, you can also buy Rifle 45 and a seperate LMG team. That costs 2 points more (30 + 9 instead of 37). You get one maneuver unit more, one man more (9 in squads + 2 LMG) and you don't face the risk that someone throws the SMG away to help with the LMG. Also, the initial firepower of the Grenadier squad is less since one guy is assumed to help the LMG (although I can't see that the 2-LMG squad suffer more from this effect, too late iin the evening for pocket calculator).

So, what do your think about the seperate LMG purchase?

Anyone else annoyed that the British cost exactly the same per man although all weapons are linear less capable? Plus the PIAT/2" mtr..

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Commander]

Redwolf, the only problem with buying the extra LMG is the speed. When it is included with the squad it doesn't seem to affect the squads speed. (or does it?)

[ 09-23-2001: Message edited by: Commander ]

[Redwolf]

I just ran a test: In seperate lanes, one squad in the open faces two M3A1. Five such lanes with Rifle 45, five with Panzergrenadiere. The squads have no foxholes and have to run 30 meters or so.

PG 1: lost 1 rifle, 1 MP44 and the SMG

PG 2: lost 2 rifle, 1 MP44

PG 3: lost 2 rifle, 1 MP44, 1 LMG

PG 4: lost 1 rifle, 1 MP44

PG 5: lost 2 rifle, 2 MP44, the SMG, one LMG

R45 1: no losses

R45 2: 1 rifle, 1 MP44, the LMG

R45 3: no losses

R45 4: 1 rifle

R45 5: 1 rifle, 1 MP44, the SMG

Test run again:

PG 1: lost the SMG

PG 2: lost 2 rifle and the SMG

PG 3: lost 4 rifle, 1 MP44

PG 4: lost 1 rifle

PG 5: lost 2 rifle, the SMG, one LMG

R45 1: 2 rifle, 1 MP44

R45 2: 1 rifle, 2 MP44

R45 3: 2 rifle, 1 MP44

R45 4: 4 rifle, 2 MP44, the SMG, the LMG (ouch)

R45 5: no losses

So, while these seems to be a tendency to keep the LMG, it isn't that bad that hey would prefer to drop the SMG instead of MP44 or rifles. Still, the rifle 45 squads loose fewer SMGs than the Grenadiere.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commander:

Redwolf, the only problem with buying the extra LMG is the speed. When it is included with the squad it doesn't seem to affect the squads speed. (or does it?)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, good point. I thought the speed class of the LMG is fast, but it is medium, so it cannot run. That's bad and certainly a break in game logic.

[Redwolf]

Bump. Actually my first bump, anyone tried whether using LMGs with smaller squads is better than 2-Mg squads?

[JasonC]

Actually, nothing about buying LMGs seperately works. They don't have the speed. They don't have the ammo. They aren't resilient enough under fire. At short range they don't live long enough to do anything. At long range they don't have enough firepower to stop anyone.

The combat effective LMGs come in squads. The only good reason to buy the LMGs is deception - for the price of one squad you can give the enemy enough "infantry?" markers to look at that he will think you have a platoon in the area, and with several of them firing at once, at range and into open ground, they might stop 1-2 attackers - briefly.

For MG firepower you are better off buying HMGs, as they are more robust and have a much higher ammo load. For infantry work, buy platoons. Piecing together a unit out of nearly single man units just doesn't work at all. If you want fast LMG firepower just use the 2-LMG squad types; that is what they are for.

[Redwolf]

I know how vulnerable the two-man LMGs are. I won against a Pueppchen/LMG,75mm infantry gun combination by simply overrunning the MGs and then detailing the guns from wherever I want.

If anything, they may be effective when integrated closely with the platoon, say one per squad. In no event will a isolated LMG be of any use.

Remember that CMBO infantry units are much more vulnerable to fire from several directions than the same amount from front. Six or five firing positions may pay off for that reason alone.

[Warmaker]

I just want to add to this LMG thing: I completely agree with the limits of the LMG and their limited uses/survivability. However, I don't rule them out completely in my troop selections, especially since I'm a points cherrypicker. By themselves, the LMGs are no real threat. What I use them for, esp. on the defense, is to supplement the firepower of my infantry platoons. LMG teams are pretty cheap so I find it a decent buy for those last 20 points I'm thinking about. A regular German LMG42 team is 12 pts and a veteran team IIRC is 14 pts. What little firepower a good LMG team can give to boost your platoon's firepower is good enough in my book.

[Wreck]

I agree with Jason. If you want firepower, buy LMGs in squads, not separately. LMG teams are slow, have little ammo, and are incredibly brittle. They die almost incidentally. They are so weak, I have seen 81mm mortars kill 'em.

What are they good for? Well, one reason is to get observation. Especially on a larger board, it is often important to simply have a single unit off somewhere, so you can find out if the enemy is manuevering there. LMGs, being the cheapest German unit, can be useful in this role.

Their main use, though, is as Jason says: deception. Especially on defense.

Take one squad from a platoon that you can spare, split it, add an LMG, and put them out somewhere that has good forward vision, and cover behind to flee into. And where you don't mind being shelled -- not near your own guns. It is often desirable to put a leader there; I often use a 'junk' platoon leader (no combat or morale bonus); then the other two squads from the platoon get attached to a good company commander somewhere important. So together the 4 units (platoon HQ, 2 half squads, LMG) make a sort of ersatz platoon. Their mission is to look like a real platoon, to draw arty fire and/or to induce the enemy to manuever as if they were real. So open up early with all the units, so the enemy sees 3 or 4 "infantry?" markers. After the LMG fires a minimal amount (i.e., you are sure it was seen), don't fire any more -- too much firing and the enemy will see "crew?", not "squad?" as you would wish. Instead, bug out with the LMG as soon as it makes itself seen. The squad and HQ should wait until the enemy fires arty (if he does), and be prepared to use "withdraw".

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Wreck ]

[SGTHenry]

My favorites are usually SMG squads for the money.

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

The Sturmkompanie (...). If you run into something blasty, you loose two squads and if they were 13-men mostly-automatic guys you just suffered significant losses in points, combat power and number of maveuver units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yah, exactly why I told myself never to use them again (twice!). The first time I used a (regular) Sturmkompanie, it had a HQ With no bonuses. A couple of lucky arty hits had over 40 men running away in panic in an instant. Getting them back on their feet and regrouping was a pain. Needless to say they weren't effective in that battle at all after that.

Can't remember exactly what happened the second time I purchased them, except that it turned out to be a waste of points.