Detecting mines

[Brightblade]

Is there any way to detect mines (besides the daisy chain) without sacrificing units? I tried once placing mines myself and then directed engineers to the very places. I let them walk over anti tank mines several times without any success. Leaving them near anti personnel minefields for several turns also had no success.

Mines may not be spotted too easily, of course, but AFAIK there is no way of placing mines without traces, so at least engineers walking nearby should be able to spot them, shouldn´t they?

[Kestrl]

Infantry can't detect regular anti tank mines but if you have engineers about 10 meters away from a anti personnel minefield or daisy chain they will remove them. Engineers and infantry can detect mines but only engineers can remove them. The only way to remove anti tank mines is after one of your vehicles sets them off and you can move a engineer platoon within range to remove them.

Originally posted by Brightblade:

Is there any way to detect mines (besides the daisy chain) without sacrificing units? I tried once placing mines myself and then directed engineers to the very places. I let them walk over anti tank mines several times without any success. Leaving them near anti personnel minefields for several turns also had no success.

Mines may not be spotted too easily, of course, but AFAIK there is no way of placing mines without traces, so at least engineers walking nearby should be able to spot them, shouldn´t they?

[Canadian Insurgent]

Does anyone know if the old WWI tactic of shelling minefields do anything to detect or reduce the effectiveness of mines?

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Canadian Insurgent:

Does anyone know if the old WWI tactic of shelling minefields do anything to detect or reduce the effectiveness of mines?

It has no effect.

[Brightblade]

Engineers are able to clear all sorts of detected minefields (at the range of about 25 m) as can be read in the manual (as long as they have satchel charges; no satchel charges needed for daisy chain). I´m interested in any way of detecting minefields _without_ sending anyone to his (quite) certain death. So if anyone knows...

[ June 14, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

Engineers are able to clear all sorts of detected minefields (at the range of about 25 m) as can be read in the manual (as long as they have satchel charges; no satchel charges needed for daisy chain). I´m interested in any way of detecting minefields _without_ sending anyone to his (quite) certain death. So if anyone knows...

It's the other way round, the sathel charges are use for the daisy-chain ones. The other ones are cleared by using time.

What happens to daisy-chain minesfields if you run out of charges, BTW? Are they cleared by time as the other minefields?

[Canadian Insurgent]

Where is a penal battalion when you need one for a little minesweeping, eh?

"Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!"

[Brightblade]

According to the manual my posting was correct. Daisy chain mines are cleared by engineers without using satchel charges. Both of the other two mine types require satchel charges. BTW, I also did it that way in a few scenarios, so the manual seems to be correct on this point.

[ June 23, 2002, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[Cpl Carrot]

Daisies require no satchel cahrges to be removed. AFAIK there is no way of finding buried mines other than by stepping on the things (or running over them if AT)

Cpl Carrot

[sturner]

Just have the troops cover their eyes, and tap on the ground with their feet. It really is the most effective way.

Have you ever seen how fast a mine-detector team works?

Your scenario would be over by the time they finished walking just a short area. Besides, I don't think that mine-detectors are modeled in CMBO.

[Brightblade]

There´s no need to detect every single mine in the minefield (at least not during the hot stage of a battle), but AFAIK that´s what a mine-detector team good for: clearing every last mine in the field to eliminate the threat completely. That was _not_ what I asked for. It is understandable that not everybody (least of all fast moving vehicles) can spot a minefield at once, otherway they would loose a great deal in effectiveness, but troops who are trained to create minefields themselves,just as enigneers, should be able to detect indicators, when they are near. In the desert, it may be possible to burry mines without leaving any trace (though even that is improbable), but in middle Europe that is quite impossible. I´m not talking about the occasional explosive trap, which can be hid almost anywhere, but about a certain area of purposely placed mines. To make certain that practically no one crosses this area without triggering one of the mines, the mines can not be placed only where no one will be able to detect them without special equimpent. Mines may not be burried to deeply, else the trigger is ineffective. Have you ever seen a AT-mine? Even nowadays they are quite big, but in WWII times they were even bigger, because modern AT-mines use shape charges whereas former mines simply had a big load of explosive. So there have to be traces - for a trained eye at least.

[ June 17, 2002, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[dumrox]

My infantry have discovered AT minefields in several battles, long before any vehicles got near enough to suffer from them. I think any unit has a small chance to see minefields, at least AT mines. I can't recall finding any AP minefields without casualties.

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by dumrox:

My infantry have discovered AT minefields in several battles, long before any vehicles got near enough to suffer from them. I think any unit has a small chance to see minefields, at least AT mines. I can't recall finding any AP minefields without casualties.

Hmmmm, this doesn't sound right. I've run a test scenario with all kinds and experience levels of engineers and HQs under ideal conditions (i.e. no bad guys shooting at them and a solid line of AT mines emplaced) and they never, NEVER detected any of the AT mines no matter what they did (run, walk, crawl, hide, sit, attack the ground) or how long they did it. Daisy chains are, of course, a different animal entirely.

I'd be very interested in knowing the situation in which your troops found the mines.

Joe

[Mud]

dumrox --

Sure they weren't daisy ATs instead of regulars? They use the same sign type, if memory serves, so the main give-away (aside from trying to clear them with engineers and succeeding without using a demo charge) is that if an AT mine is on a paved surface, it must be a daisy. Anywhere else, it might be, but isn't necessarily.

[dumrox]

Good point Mud. Not sure of the answer. I might still have the turns from one of the games around, but I think what you are saying is that I won't be able to look at the minefield and know if it was a daisy chain.

[dumrox]

Just went back and looked at the game I was thinking of, and I think the mines were probably daisy chains. My infantry spotted the mines as soon as they got in LoS of them while they were still about 70m away. That seems way too far for hidden mines to be detected, even if the game supported detecting mines without triggering them. I am no longer making any such claim. Thanks for the daisy chain possibility, Mud.

Kevin

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

There´s no need to detect every single mine in the minefield (at least not during the hot stage of a battle), but AFAIK that´s what a mine-detector team good for: clearing every last mine in the field to eliminate the threat completely. That was _not_ what I asked for. It is understandable that not everybody (least of all fast moving vehicles) can spot a minefield at once, otherway they would loose a great deal in effectiveness, but troops who are trained to create minefields themselves,just as enigneers, should be able to detect indicators, when they are near. In the desert, it may be possible to burry mines without leaving any trace (though even that is improbable), but in middle Europe that is quite impossible. I´m not talking about the occasional explosive trap, which can be hid almost anywhere, but about a certain area of purposely placed mines. To make certain that practically no one crosses this area without triggering one of the mines, the mines can not be placed only where no one will be able to detect them without special equimpent. Mines may not be burried to deeply, else the trigger is ineffective. Have you ever seen a AT-mine? Even nowadays they are quite big, but in WWII times they were even bigger, because modern AT-mines use shape charges whereas former mines simply had a big load of explosive. So there have to be traces - for a trained eye at least.

Hmmm. . . lately, in my personal quest to eventually achieve grog status (That highest pinnacle of knowledge!! ), I've been reading a lot of US Army training manuals from the WWII period. So far, I haven't come across any manual with instructions about how to detect an AT or any other kind of mine. This doesn't mean that regular troops (as opposed to specialized mine-detecting troops) weren't trained to detect signs of minefields, it just means that I'd be a lot more convinced if someone could point me to a passage in a training manual or something about what the average grunt was supposed to be looking for to detect a minefield.

[Brightblade]

Unfortunately I don´t know any passages in WWII manuals about mine detecting, so I probably won´t be able to convince you (provided I would want to ), but when expecting mines, I was told to look for signs of recent digging, furrows of a mine plough, bumps which seem to be unnatural (e.g. because they are too regular), empty crates or other package materials, etc. This applies only to recent minefields, of course, but older ones can be assumed where plant growth (provided there is any) is higher than in other spots nearby (animals tend to avoid mined areas, as does the native population).

These indicators should be basically the same as in WWII. Even if most regular troops were not trained in mine detecting, I´m quite sure almost everybody was told what to look for, when mines were to be expected, either by instructors or by veterans in their squad, platoon or company.

[ June 23, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Brightblade ]

[Tarquelne]

no matter what they did (run, walk, crawl, hide, sit, attack the ground) or how long they did it.

I've had some success using Veteren engineers riding in HTs.

[Brightblade]

Sure, but you didn´t have the HT (and probably some of the mounted engineers) afterwards, did you?

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Brightblade:

Unfortunately I don´t know any passages in WWII manuals about mine detecting, so I probably won´t be able to convince you (provided I would want to ), but when expecting mines, I was told to look for signs of recent digging, furrows of a mine plough, bumps which seem to be unnatural (e.g. because they are too regular), empty crates or other package materials, etc. This applies only to recent minefields, of course, but older ones can be assumed where plant growth (provided there is any) is higher than in other spots nearby (animals tend to avoid mined areas, as does the native population).

These indicators should be basically the same as in WWII. Even if most regular troops were not trained in mine detecting, I´m quite sure almost everybody was told what to look for, when mines were to be expected, either by instructors or by veterans in their squad, platoon or company.

Yep, everything you're saying makes sense. If I were to make an educated guess, I'd say that more experienced 'regular' troops (i.e., not engineers or other specially trained troops) could probably detect signs of a minefield, at least in some situations.

I can only speculate as to why this ability is not included in the game, but my guess is that it came down to a cost/benefit analysis as to how much effort it would really take to realistically model mine detection in the game.

For example, some of the methods of mine detection you mention above, like looking for areas of higher/undisturbed vegetation (meaning no animals or people have been near) work only for AP mines. AT mines are specifically designed to not detonate under the pressure of a human (or animal) foot and save their bang for something bigger and heavier (like a tank).

A skilled minelayer can make certain types of mines on certain types of surfaces virtually impossible to detect. AT mines in a dirt road can actually be graded over so there is no sign of recent digging unless the detection effort is almost immediately after the mines were laid.

The same goes for almost any type of mine placed in an open field where the sod can literally be cut, lifted up, and then replaced - it would take a hands and knees inspection of the grass inch by inch to detect signs of a minefield. The same goes for scattered trees or woods - dead leaves and underbrush can be very convincingly lifted up and then replaced so that there is very little sign of disturbance.

Given all of this, I guess BTS just decided to make all minefields undetectable as the majority of well-laid fields probably would be undetectable without special equipment, or at least so nearly so that it wasn't worth the time and effort to code a detection routine. In some situations, this simplification is probably a bit unrealistic, but you can't expect any model to be perfect.

A nice future addition to CM might be a differentiation between a 'hasty' defense and a 'prepared' defense. In the former, minefields would be assumed to have been laid quite recently, and therefore there would be some chance of detecting signs of the minefields without actually stepping on them. In the latter, defensive preparations would be assumed to have been made well ahead of time, and therefore impossible to detect by visual observation.

[Mud]

Yup, would be a nice addition. 'course, if it's a much previously prepared defense, there'd also be the risk that some of it is already known -- but the ability to stick .BMPs or other image types in a briefing would permit dealing with that, as well. And that would be very, very spiffy indeed. (Right now, they could be marked as landmarks -- possibly inaccurately, heh -- but image(s) in the briefing would be swell.)

I suspect that there are enough interesting potential additions for BTS/BFC (?)/Battlefront to be draining our wallets for as long as they care too.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

A few facts on mines in CM;

Daisy Chain Mines:

Can be seen by any infantry or AFV's if in clear LOS. Try placing them just below a ridge or at the point where a road starts to slope down, or just past a bend in the road, chances are a vehicle will not see them until the last minute.....or when its too late. Mosty used to deny terrain to the enemy such as to block a road, once spotted enemy vehicles will reroute their plotted move around the mines. Daisy chain mines will dissapear if you leave some engineers close by for one turn or 2, no satchel charge will be used.

Anti-tank mines:

Cannot be placed on roads, cannot be detected by any infantry or AFV unless a vehicle runs right into the field and detonates at least one mine. Once detected only engineers with satchel charges can clear them.

Anti-personel mines;

As above, cannot be detected by any unit type until an infantry unit runs into and detonates at least one mine. Once detected only engineers can clear them with satchel charges.

Hope that helps.

CDIC

[YankeeDog]

OK, here's an interesting tidbit.

I'm in the process of reading "Army Talks" Vol II, No. 27 published 5th July 1944. The "Army Talks" series were short pamhlets intended to disseminate important information and lessons learned by front line troops through the fighting army. If you're interested, Some of them are available to read online here

I discovered a short passage in this pamphlet regarding the detection of mines. First it mentioned that mines were easily detectable, and that most could be easily set off by aimed rifle fire. Unfortunately, it didn't detail exactly how mine were detected, except for this: According to the pamphlet, in Normandy, any, many German minefields were clearly marked with signs!! Needless to say, GI Joe pretty quickly learned what "Actung Minen" meant. To quote:

" Cpl. Infantry: You can generally see Jerry's mines. They lived near their own mines so they're careful to mark them. Mines needn't stop you. There are "Achtung Minen" signs up all over the country. There are more signs than mines here." ibid. p.11

What's also interesting about the above is that it seems to imply that the Germans would put up "Achtung Minen" signs in unmined areas as a ruse.

The "Army Talks" brochures have to be taken with a grain of salt because they were published by the US Army at least partially as propaganda to improve morale in addition to being a training aid. Still, it's an interesting note for scenario designers - for Normandy scenarios, any way, it might be more realistic to mark the locations of most minefields with landmarks notes so the allied player knows where they are (and maybe add in a few fake ones for good measure!!).

[Redwolf]

Mining is first of all done to deny terrain or ways to the enemy. Not so much to kill enemies.

Then, there is always somebody who doesn't get the word. You can be sure friendly units will run over your own minefield if you really conceal it.