Still Concerned about Troops Tiring...(pics)

[Panzer Leader]

OK, I was playing a game, where a squad that hasn't moved or even been in battle, finally decides to act.

After the 24 second delay, he leaves his trench, and begins assaulting up a tree'd slope:

Now then, after 34 seconds of action, he has run the gamut from rested to "Tired" and what I want to know is, how can doing ANYTHING for a mere 34 seconds bring you to such a low physical state?

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, and it's not a game-breaker by any means, but sheesh, if these are fit troops, I would hate to see what weak troops are like. I could run flat out as fast as humanly possible, do push-ups, sit-ups, or fight someone with daggers for 34 seconds before tiring out. I don't think a person can BECOME tired in a mere 34 seconds.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I don't think a person can BECOME tired in a mere 34 seconds.

You, sir, have never climbed Mount M_____F_____ at Camp Pendelton

[billcarey]

Or had to carry not only your own pack, but a radio and a stokes litter 200m up a steep hill covered with icy leaves. That'll own you in about 20 steps.

Then we get to carry it back down with a patient inside too. The whole team's pretty shot after semi-technical rescue and it takes us five or six minutes to get back to a ready state.

[WWB]

What was the terrain? If it was deep mud, that makes sense.

WWB

[ColdSober]

You're telling me that you could could climb out of a trench wearing full combat gear (including boots and a helmet) carrying a rifle, backpack, and ammunition, and then sprint up a 40° slope at top speed for half a minute without being tired? Not exhausted, not even tired? I'd like to see that.

[Redwolf]

Well, the question here is what kind of speed is the game modeling. I can assure you I can exhaust myself in 34 seconds. Think of a 100m run.

However, I would never run *that* fast in combat. In combat I would run a little slower, in a mode where I could hold the speed a little longer.

The question here is really: what kind of speed does BFC assume the soldiers to run in? Since they are freshly assaulting a sane choice of speed would be expected from real soldiers. The sergant would be insane to start an attack at what he knows is the top speed of his soldiers.

As always, recovery from exhausted takes too long for my taste in CMBB, at least in many situations and for many units.

[MrSpkr]

What was the weather? If it was hot, I am surprised they last 34 seconds.

Steve

[billcarey]

Part of the 'problem' with fatigue in CMBB may be an issue of terminology. i'd suggest a change to the following:

Tiring -> Winded: Heavy breathing rhythm, quickened pulse. Muscles pushing hard, but not losing performance. Recovery time of about a minute of rest.

Tired -> Tiring: Heavy breathing rhythm, quickened pulse, some shortness of breath. Muscles have lost peak performance. If they are pushed they will degrade quickly, but are still capable of 'normal' levels of exertion. A couple of minutes of rest or ten to fifteen minutes of low level activity to recover from.

Exhausted -> Tired: Heavy breathing, rhythm broken. Muscles have lost peak and normal performance. Ten or fifteen minutes of little muscular activity to get back to peak performance.

In my mind exhausted is something you are at the end of the day. Something that takes a whole night of sleep (or not) to cure. I don't think troops should get exhausted in a CMBB scale battle (or if they do, then they should be out for the count)

My thoughts. When I have some time off from work and exams I may try my hand at a fatigue label mod.

[PvtTom]

IMHO troops tire too easily, I was in the military, 11B at Fort Benning so I have a little experience, now it was a few years ago but the guys do seem to tire fast, people don't seem to be taking the whole adrenaline factor into consideration, I was only getting shot at with MILES gear and I was worked up a lot, I can't imagine how hyped up you would be in real combat, that's a lot of extra energy.

[Panzer Leader]

34 seconds?!?!?!

[Guest PondScum]

Slopes are infantry-killers (in terms of exhaustion) in both CMBO and CMBB. Assaulting up a slope is better than assaulting through barbed wire, but not by much. Stay the hell away from them - unless you're trying to set up a kill-sack around them.

Trenches and foxholes also seem to be pretty hard going. The truly gamey sneak up to the very edge of a trench the turn before doing a jump-off, minimizing the amount of time the troops spend in "Trench" next turn...

[Terrapin]

Try counting 34 seconds, as in "One Mississippi...TWO mississippi...", until you get to 34. Then imagine you're RUNNING with 80 lbs of equipment on you, up a STEEP slope.

Dude, you wouldn't last 8 seconds!!

I bike 28 miles a day, and I hike in the Mt. Washington area about once every two weeks, weather permitting. Believe me, you ain't doing it without hurling your guts out.

You can avoid this problem in CMBB by getting the "QUAD FATIGUE BOOST" Power-up, usually found near scattered woods. On Jahnfelde, it's near the second 88.

[ December 11, 2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Terrapin ]

[Bergerbitz]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

Try counting 34 seconds, as in "One Mississippi...TWO mississippi...", until you get to 34. Then imagine you're RUNNING with 80 lbs of equipment on you, up a STEEP slope.

Dude, you wouldn't last 8 seconds!!

I bike 28 miles a day, and I hike in the Mt. Washington area about once every two weeks, weather permitting. Believe me, you ain't doing it without hurling your guts out.

You can avoid this problem in CMBB by getting the "QUAD FATIGUE BOOST" Power-up, usually found near scattered woods. On Jahnfelde, it's near the second 88.

Yeee! You bike 28 miles a day? Where do you find that kind of time? I bike only 5 miles a day, five times a week. Each trip takes about 20 minutes.

But to get back to the main point....I'd get tired with 80 lbs on my back, especially if it's a steep hill. I'd give myself about 30 seconds before getting at least a little wobbly in the knees.

28 miles a day...?

...

...phew...

[Terrapin]

And, another thing, I don't see why you think that "TIRED" is "such a low physical state". It's kind of the "norm" in the game if they're fighting hard, and any fit troop recovers in one turn. They can still do everything they could originally as well.

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

And, another thing, I don't see why you think that "TIRED" is "such a low physical state". It's kind of the "norm" in the game if they're fighting hard, and any fit troop recovers in one turn. They can still do everything they could originally as well.

Maybe that's it. Maybe 'tired' is not so bad. I mean, I expect combat is 'tiring' and all but I wish people would get off the whole "80lb gear" bit. NO ONE wears their full kit, rattling mess-kit, sleeping bag, that crap into battle. I epect it's 20-30 lbs at most.

[OGSF]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I mean, I expect combat is 'tiring' and all but I wish people would get off the whole "80lb gear" bit. NO ONE wears their full kit, rattling mess-kit, sleeping bag, that crap into battle. I epect it's 20-30 lbs at most.

Ye kin run laddie, boot ye cannae hide!

Tha Brits landin' on Gold Beach on D-Day were wearin' full kit - rations an' crap fer three days. A shtyupid idea bah sum brass-brained idjit back at General Staff - boot tha poor bleeder's still had tae cross tha wet an' dry sandy beach wi' 60 tae 80lbs on' haes back, under fire. No' many o' tha bugggers were runnin'...

[Dirtweasle]

Aye, but did the Jerries routinely fight in full gear?

[Redwolf]

I think we should stop discussion choices of words "tired", "exhausted" etc.

Question is: after 34 seconds of doing whatever you go in a planned assault, would you be unable to do any step faster than walking speed? That is what happens in CMBB in this example.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by redwolf:

I think we should stop discussion choices of words "tired", "exhausted" etc...

Ok, we won't use tired, but I keep waiting for OGSF to try and scottish up the word 'exhausted'!

[mididoctors]

any human being operating at 100% no matter how fit will enter oxygen debt in UNDER one minute...how much you can do in that time depends on fitness.... recovery from extending oxygen debt can take as long as 6 minutes to resting heart rate..... operating at 80% is sustainable for lengthy (hours) periods of time.. do not confuse stamina with VO2 performance/ capacities.. for instance you could march across Russia and gain a huge stamina base that let you operate at 80% for 12 hour stretches but running top whack for 30 secs would still wind you....

the recovery rates in CMBB seem a little slow if anything for fit troops.... also crawling does not require the effort portrayed (I went and tested a 100m crawl with a 20kg load). The dash uphill posted is a lung bursting effort and not unrealistic.

in general the exhaustion rules in CMBB are not perfect but they are a reasonable representation of the efforts involved.

adrenniline will allow you you to act faster and stronger for very short periods (less than a minute) for sustained efforts its presence is detrimental and will infact tire you quicker than being relaxed.

former pro cyclist

Boris

masters2k

[mididoctors]

any human being operating at 100% no matter how fit will enter oxygen debt in UNDER one minute...how much you can do in that time depends on fitness.... recovery from extending oxygen debt can take as long as 6 minutes to resting heart rate..... operating at 80% is sustainable for lengthy (hours) periods of time.. do not confuse stamina with VO2 performance/ capacities.. for instance you could march across Russia and gain a huge stamina base that let you operate at 80% for 12 hour stretches but running top whack for 30 secs would still wind you....

the recovery rates in CMBB seem a little slow if anything for fit troops.... also crawling does not require the effort portrayed (I went and tested a 100m crawl with a 20kg load). The dash uphill posted is a lung bursting effort and not unrealistic.

in general the exhaustion rules in CMBB are not perfect but they are a reasonable representation of the efforts involved.

adrenniline will allow you you to act faster and stronger for very short periods (less than a minute) for sustained efforts its presence is detrimental and will infact tire you quicker than being relaxed.

former pro cyclist

Boris

masters2k

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

NO ONE wears their full kit, rattling mess-kit, sleeping bag, that crap into battle. I epect it's 20-30 lbs at most.

Be real careful about absolute statements like that. My light load was about 80-90lbs. Also, the guys humpin' the M-60's carry more than your 20-30lb limit

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

34 seconds?!?!?!

While troops Assaulting certainly aren't sprinting all the time, I think what they're supposed to be doing may be more tireing.

1) Jump up (He-sees-me)

2) Sprint to cover (He-taking-aim)

3) throw self down (He-doesn't-see-me)

4) Look-around-see-who's-dead-look-for-enemy-hope-to-see-him-first-THERE-HE-IS-FIRE-missed!-breathe-breathe-breathe

5) Repeat. (Oh-sh*t)

The rest at step 4 is nice compared to a straight sprint over the distance, but it still looks very tiring to me.

[ December 12, 2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Battlefront.com]

Here we go again

I find it interesting that the people on this Forum who are, apparently, in the best shape (far better than "Fit" IMHO) are saying that by and large the fatigue modeling is pretty much right on. The people who say it isn't are, at best, vague. From all the past discussions the con argument boils down to this:

"I have no personal experience to draw from, nor any professional experience, but darn it! I say my guys tire too quickly"

The "full kit" issue has been brought up several times already. The ones who have argued that normal troops do not tote around the kind of weight we portray always, IMHO, get soundly trounced when the numbers are looked at. Don't belive me?

"NO ONE wears their full kit, rattling mess-kit, sleeping bag, that crap into battle. I epect it's 20-30 lbs at most."

Oooooooooh really? I just dipped into my collection and weighed the following:

2xKar98k ammo pouch w/30 rounds = 3 lb

1xSet of post war (lighter) jackboots = 7 lbs

1xMauser98k w/strap & 5 rounds = 10 lbs

Now... you can't expect me to believe that a German soldier would assault wearing nothing but his birthday suit, two pouches of ammo, and a rifle now do you? And I don't even want to know how he could carry the ammo without a belt and suspenders So let's make this a bit more realistic...

1xHelmet (I weighed several WWII era ones) = 3 lbs

1xWool Tunic and Trousers (WWII era) = 5 lbs

WWII German style Breadbag, belt, Y-straps, canteen w/water, zeltbahn, entrenching tool, and bayonet = 14 lbs

The above is basic combat kit and it weighs in at around 34lbs.

This does not includeother STANDARD items such as grenades (1.5 lb each!!), extra ammo, personal affects (pay book, lighter, money, shaving kit, etc.), spare clothing, food, personal 1st aid kit, hat (of some sort), rifle cleaning kit, and probably a few other things I am not thinking of. This could easily add another 20 lbs to the soldier. And it is not stuff he would be without.

That brings us to 54 lbs for a modest "combat load" for a rifleman in summer dress.

Unless someone can weigh their own WWII era stuff and prove me wrong, can we please stop with the discussion of weight?

Steve

[ December 12, 2002, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Battlefront.com]

Tarqulene is correct:

While troops Assaulting certainly aren't sprinting all the time, I think what they're supposed to be doing may be more tireing.

From my own layman's experience, and reading what vets have had to say about this, theere is nothing more tiring than having to sprint, hit the dirt/cover, sprint, hit the dirt/cover, etc. repeatedly in a very compressed space of time.

Also... PL... what was the ground condition for that scenario you posted? It does look like it could be muddy. Ground condition is a HUGE factor in terms of fatigue, as is air temperature. Muddy with hot temps or snow with bitter cold do not compare with dry ground and moderate temps.

Steve