Fear the Marder III (or not)

[Herr Kruger]

Okay, this is funny. I have a Marder III that near the end of a turn sights a buttoned Sherman and gets a free shot, which misses. Next turn, my opponent targets my Marder III while I target the Sherman still. Both are hull down.

The result of that turn is 7 misses by the Marder and six by the Sherman. Range is 643 m. Hehe... so 8 misses in a row by my Marder III! LOL!

[Boo Radley]

Yeah, I love when that happens. I end up screaming at the monitor, "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU??? HE'S RIGHT THERE!" Too, too silly.

[ParaBellum]

Hehe...

Many moons ago I posted a nice pic where one of my Panthers missed a Sherman from less than 10m!

Maybe if both run out of ammo they abandon their vehicles. Then they can fight it out with knives and spades...

[Silvio Manuel]

I had three Marder III's shooting at 2 buttoned Shermans for a whole turn...all I got was 1 dead Marder, who happened to KO the same Sherman w/ one of those "shooting-as-I-get-brewed-up" shots. So my Marders shot something like 1 for 13 (about 600m). Meanwhile, his Shermans were so busy pounding my platoon as close range that they barely noticed my attack.

[abuhabib]

while playing le lorey-a hard stand, my panther was slugging it out face-to face (or gun mantle-to-gun mantle). needless to say, the sherm bought it....

[Noba]

Just the opposite for me. Just got wiped in a game where a moving Pather got taken out by an immobilised M4 at 1650 metres !!!

Oh yes, an M10 got a shell in flight too from about 1050 meters. It hit too.

Noba.

[PiggDogg]

Kruger,

I was never there in real life to see how many shots between enemy tanks missed or hit. However, I think that your experience was probably more historically correct than the first shot one hit wonders described herein and in which I have participated in CM. :eek: :eek:

I suspect that in real life, on a per shot basis, hits were relatively rare. In CM, I feel that hit are too frequent. Many shots were made before a hit would occur.

Only an opinion.

Cheers, Richard :cool: :cool:

[Herr Kruger]

Update : Okay, so my Marder then misses his next five shots, so that is thirteen consecutive misses from the Marder haha!

[PiggDogg]

Kruger,

Well maybe 13 straight misses is a lot. Maybe, it is too many.

Cheers, Richard

[JonS]

Originally posted by Herr Kruger:

Update : Okay, so my Marder then misses his next five shots, so that is thirteen consecutive misses from the Marder haha!

Is there a difference in elevation between the target and shooter, and is one of them near a change in elevation?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

I suspect that in real life, on a per shot basis, hits were relatively rare. In CM, I feel that hit are too frequent.

FWIW, I tend to agree. I wish I had definite figures on what the shot/hit/penetration ratios were for different weapons during different parts of the war. I have many accounts where at least three shots were fired before a hit was achieved, and sometimes many hits were scored before a killing penetration. But I can't say over all how typical that was. Several people on this board have posted accounts listing many first shot kills...

Michael

[Shandorf]

In the book "Panzer Aces" I am reading it seemed that atmost 2 shots would be fired before scoring a hit, even at long ranges of 1000+ meters. Oh well...

Jeff

[Mattias]

My impression is that fewer hits actually resulted in KO'd or abandoned vehicles, especially early in the war.

In real life it was no doubt harder to acquire a target due to factors like terrain, sun glare, shadows and weather, and ones in the sights LOS was lost more to minor terrain features and a thousand little disturbances in the gunners work.

But still, for example, the early Panthers reported 3-4 shots to kill at 1500 meters, PzJg VI L/70 reported 80-90% hit probability at 1000 meters in combat situations (CM shows 30% vs stationary Sherman front). Then again, that is with one of the best guns of the war.

As for the Marder III vs. Sherman, what's the expression, go buy a lottery ticket. Missing 13 times in a row, provided you too are just standing there, is not very likely

--

M.

[ March 20, 2002, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Firefly]

13 misses? I'd consider myself lucky to get 13 shots off with a Marder. The normal sequence in my experience is: 1. Marder fires 2. Marder dies.

[Patgod]

Originally posted by Firefly:

13 misses? I'd consider myself lucky to get 13 shots off with a Marder. The normal sequence in my experience is: 1. Marder fires 2. Marder dies.

sounds like my SiG33

1. killed all tanks -check

2. no arty FO's in the area - check

3. killed all known mortars - check

4. have a mass of inf in gun range - check

FIRE

*mortars begin to land on the sig before its second shot*

3a. CRAP! there must have been 1 60mm left!!

gun crew breaks.

[Soddball]

After all the abuse nashorns et al get, I decided to try my luck with them.

I set up a 500pt QB, with regular forces, on a moderately hilly, moderately wooded terrain.

For the Allies, I picked a pair of plain M4 Shermans.

For the Axis, I picked a single Nashorn.

There was only one victory flag, in a clump of trees on a hill on the right hand side of the map.

Now in close terrain on a small map, the Shermans should have the advantage, because they have turrets. However, I used my Nashorn how (I think) I'm supposed to - rolling it to a spot, hunting and reversing.

Doing this, I got one of the Shermans. The other took me out with a burst of 50cal through a building.

So it's not impossible, but it is tough to use them. I will probably pick the Marder/Nashorn vehicle type for future battles because you can have successes - but leaving them in one place is death, every time.

[wbs]

From Herr Kruger:

Update : Okay, so my Marder then misses his next five shots, so that is thirteen consecutive misses from the Marder haha!

Geez, you shoot like a girl!!

[dfgardner]

Originally posted by Herr Kruger:

Update : Okay, so my Marder then misses his next five shots, so that is thirteen consecutive misses from the Marder haha!

Don't worry, the Marder is 'surpressing' the Sherman.

My experience has been:

1. As German, Marder takes repeated shots, misses, killed by flank shot by Sherman crew laughing hysterically.

2. As Allies, Sherman hit, burns, obscures battlefield for rest of my Shermans, while Germans continue to pick off remaining AFVs from long range.

[Herr Kruger]

There is the pic. All 13 shots fired at that Sherman! Note the huge brea.. uh, the cowering American squad in the foreground.

[illo]

In my last game I ambushed regular sherman with my 2 veteran Marder IIs from side at 350m. I had been waiting for sherman and both marders fired but missed. sherman continued forward twisting its turret towards marders. Sherman fired, marder blew up. At start of next turn sherman was standing still so I thought veteran marder could not miss it. (with 4x magnification shermie would fill gunners view.) Marder fires...short!!! How is this possible?

Sherman misses too. Marder fires again and suprise suprise he misses. Sherman hits him. I quit in discust.

How it's possible in CM to miss so often from ambush position at close ranges?? Many times I have missed even stationary tank not aware of my tanks from 300m. Why would gunner not put his gunsight just on target and shoot when its there?? At these ranges you don't need to estimate distances or else. From most ive read under 500m tank kills were usually hit with first shot. Even at 1500m 2-3 rounds were needed usually.

Damn i could hit tank at 300m with rifle everytime. How come some trained tank gunner cant do same with much more accurate gun? I understand if hitting comes harder when you are under fire. But in ambush...cant see how gunner could be SO nervous not to even aim.

[ March 20, 2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: illo ]