CMBO and CMBB for Mac OS X

[Gyrene]

By JeffSmith: So Mac Users lets use this thread to ALL

voice our support for a possble OSX version

& let BTS know we would appreciate their efforts to produce one

I'm afraid all we're going to get here is the lock.

It took BTS some 2 years to finish CM and another 2 or so to finish CMBB.

This is not Macsoft or Macplay we're talking about here, regardless of MacDX I don't think we'll see CM on OS X in any form until the re-write another 2 or 3 years from now.

By then CM & CMBB will be just curious OS9 relics to most Mac users.

I don't think it's fair to blame Apple for this either, as seemingly every other Mac publisher has managed to convert their Glide & RAVE games to OpenGL.

I'll buy CMBB and boot into 9 to use it, but I'll not be happy about it. I've already banned from my wallet any company that does not support OS X, but unfortunatly there are no direct substitutes for CM right now.

Now, imagine if CMBB needed a considerable rewrite to work with Windows XP. Do you think BTS's answer would as cavalier as "Blame Microsoft"?

Gyrene

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Gyrene:

Now, imagine if CMBB needed a considerable rewrite to work with Windows XP. Do you think BTS's answer would as cavalier as "Blame Microsoft"?

I honestly don't have the answer to that. I have, though, noticed over the years a particularly quick tendency to savagely criticise Apple anytime they are perceived to have dropped the ball.

Sure, there are thousands if not millions of people who despise MS to death, but that is a loathing that MS has earned by way of monumental sins. Apple's sins, by way of comparison, are relatively mild.

I don't know, maybe it is just because they are perceived as small and vulnerable, whereas MS is peceived as inevitable. But for whatever the reason, there seems to be a disconnect in the logic of it all somewhere.

Michael

[astroboy]

Whaddya mean we're going to get the lock if we vote for OSX? I thought we're in a democracy here. Right of protest, freedom of speech etc. Wasn't that what all the WWII action was about in the first place?

Anyway, count me in as a vote for OSX compatibility in the long term. Of course until then we can open CM games in Classic mode, but think two or three years down the line. OSX is well entrenched, lots of peopl have upgraded to new machines. Macs have grown in market share to 10%. I don't know many companies that would throw that many sales into the ditch. It'll happen, it'll become OSX friendly one of these days. But not very quickly, I suspect. While "Classic" mode persists, that takes all the pressure off the software developers.

[lucero1148]

I think the company doing the conversion gets a percentage of the sales not outright much like Aspyr or Westlake does when they do a PC to Mac conversion of a game.

The software this company created can port to any system PC to Mac OS 9 to OS X or OS 9 to PC or to OS X. I read it a onth or 2 ago on the MacCentral .com site.

All best

Patrick

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by Gyrene:

I seem to remember threads asking if CM will be patched to run in NT.

The answer was NO. Win2000 later fixed the problem...

[27ray]

Having been down this road many months ago (when CMBB was going to be out by now) I would like to regester my vote for a OS X classic patch 3-6 months down the line from the actual release date (which can't come soon enough).

I am sure that it is too much to ask that either CMBO or CMBB be ported to run in OS X native, and i am saddened by that fact, but When CBBB comes out I will by my copy and hope that they will find the time and the energy to figure out how they can get it to work in classic.

-27ray

P.S. I would even pay a small fee for the update, which I am sure most people here would.

[ June 25, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: 27ray ]

[audiophyle]

I think Mac sales would suffer tremendously if BTS does not release an OS X version of CMBB. I would say that a large majority of all mac users already have upgraded or plan on upgrading to OS X in the next 6 months. For the last 6 months, all new Macs booted to OS X by default, so we can assume that's what new users always run. OS 9 is basically for the pre-G3 or low-end G3 Macs, as OS X performs very well on the faster machines. Almost every app that we need runs natively on X, and most of the significant games have been carbonized. I don't think it's out of the question that CMBO could be carbonized. It just might take a lot of work to write it in OpenGL. It would be a huge service to all Mac users, and I know I would buy another copy of it for that reason.

I don't mean to be negative, but I absolutely will not buy CMBB if it doesn't run on OS X natively. I just won't support companies that don't make the effort to keep up with the times. I mean, OS X has been out well over a year, and a year before that we all knew that it was coming.

While I love the fact that BTS develops on the Mac, I just think it's essential that they jump up to Mac OS X ASAP if they want to continue to support the Macintosh.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by audiophyle:

I think Mac sales would suffer tremendously if BTS does not release an OS X version of CMBB. I would say that a large majority of all mac users already have upgraded or plan on upgrading to OS X in the next 6 months. For the last 6 months, all new Macs booted to OS X by default, so we can assume that's what new users always run. OS 9 is basically for the pre-G3 or low-end G3 Macs, as OS X performs very well on the faster machines. Almost every app that we need runs natively on X, and most of the significant games have been carbonized. I don't think it's out of the question that CMBO could be carbonized. It just might take a lot of work to write it in OpenGL. It would be a huge service to all Mac users, and I know I would buy another copy of it for that reason.

I don't mean to be negative, but I absolutely will not buy CMBB if it doesn't run on OS X natively. I just won't support companies that don't make the effort to keep up with the times. I mean, OS X has been out well over a year, and a year before that we all knew that it was coming.

While I love the fact that BTS develops on the Mac, I just think it's essential that they jump up to Mac OS X ASAP if they want to continue to support the Macintosh.

Then you will not be buying CMBB because upon its release (hopefully sometime soon) it WON'T be OSX native.

It is an Open GL vs RAVE problem, and CMBB is mired in RAVE.

So the issue is that there is only one programmer at BFC and that's Charles. Saddly they are STUCK in RAVE for CMBB and MAC OSX has no RAVE support for CMBO or CMBB. So mac users that want to use the Power of OSX to get the most out of their Dual Processor systems are Mostly screwed because the raw horse power of the Dual 1 Gig CPU's is largely wasted by OS 9.x

Niether CMBO or CMBB will run in OSX in the foresable future and it saddens my deeply

Sad but true.

However that said, they are making the BEST WWII war games for a niche market to be sure and Mac users are LESS than maybe 10% of that niche market and how many of the 10% want to upgrade to OSX or have the Dual Processor hardware to take advantage of it? I would say there are not more than a hand full of them/us on this board. So, basically, if we are lucky they will move on to the major engine re-write (CM II) and program the next one from the GROUND up for Open GL (Mac OSX compatible) for the next generation of BFC WWII combat simulators.

-tom w

[ July 07, 2002, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[gibsonm]

I'm happy to re-boot my machine in 9.2.2 for when I run CM:BB.

I think the performance is going to be better that way compared to running it as a "classic" app (not that you can without deleting some extensions anyway).

As for native spt, sure I'm disappointed but I'm happy to wait for CM2 (the engine rewrite prior to revisiting NW Europe) for this.

[Måkjager]

The OS9 vs OS X conudrum was the reason why i upgraded from a rev D iMac to a G4 DP800....so as to have 2 hard drives...one for CM in OS 9..the other for "future" OS X apps.

I would love to see a OS X version of CMB)/CMBB....but not at the expense of a delayed shipment of CMBB and a scattering of BTS scarce ( Programming time )resources when they are going about rewriting the new game engine.

Regards

Måkjager

[Andreas]

I am a Mac user (G4/400), and I have OS X lying around, but have not bothered to install it. Since I use the Mac at home, and not for anything major (just typing, internet, and email), and would not buy OS X native applications anyway, since it would be a waste of money for me, I really don't care whether CMBB is made OS X native. I'd rather see Charles see spend his time on (insert gameplay related item here).

[astroboy]

I'm a Mac OSX owner, but not a user, because everywhere I go there's not enough software to make it worthwhile.

I'm in publishing 9-5 each day, and because we're now using Adobe Indesign I have kissed goodbye to Quark XPress and my Beige G3 running 8.6 and have said 'hello baby' to a wonderfully fast 933mHz G4 with 768MB RAM that's ready to play games (and publish).

But in publishing, it's font problems that are making my team still start up in OS 9.2, despite their new hardware.

And in games, it's technical problems beyond my comprehension that mean OSX loses out. Sorry, I'm not too savvy about what throbs under the hood...

So, my consumer-based gut reaction is that it's Apple's problem and not BTS's, or whatever acronym they respond to. And Apple had better start talking to all the publishing and graphic design people while they're at it, because my 9-5 industry is the backbone of Apple sales. I know they are of course talking their heads off, but what we need is results, not press releases...

However, the upside back at the more satisfying pursuit of wargaming is that with the new zippy G4 Mac, on a 21 inch screen, CMBO looks absolutely fabulous, and whenever the Russians finally arrive, it will be even better. Go Ivans!

So, let my vote count towards making the new game OSX friendly one of these days, but let's make that a cc: apple while we're at it.

[Naja]

OSX yes...delay game now no..but in the end I know I am pushing my lill old mac so it is a good idea..Soon it will be time too upgrade and OSX will be it..10% loyalty is nothing to laugh at (cant believe I spent $3500 in 92 for a 660av set up..It was worth it.)...

[Andrew Kinnie]

For what it's worth, I won't buy BB because it won't be OS X native, but would if it was.....in a heart beat.

For the record, you don't need a dp machine to get the advantages of X. I'm typing this on an iMac 400, and spend the rest of my time on an iBook (which also doubles as a cocoa development machine). X is fabulous.

Andrew

[karch]

Originally posted by Andrew Kinnie:

For what it's worth, I won't buy BB because it won't be OS X native, but would if it was.....in a heart beat..........X is fabulous.

I'm a full time X user as well. iMac DV (G3) at home, iBook (clamshell) out and about, and G4 450 at work.

X is OK on a G3, but I really feel it lag a lot compared to a G4. I wouldn't recommend a really heavy computer user to try X on a G3, it's just too slow for many day to day tasks.

Booting back into 9 is always a shock. It looks so old and dated. It's surprising how fast I got used to X. BUT, I fully understand why BFC can't get CMBB running on X and I will be booting back into 9 to play my games... just less frequently. They will probably lose some sales, but not enough to justify rewriting the entire graphics engine in openGL. They aren't happy about the situation, but it's Apple that pulled the rug out from under them.

If you like the game at all and want to see more from BFC, I'd still reccomend buying CMBB, sucking it up and booting back into 9 and playing a great game.

this way, BFC has another 50-$60 towards making another game that WILL run on OSX.

Not a perfect answer, but there aren't many options, and if you like their game and want to see more, they need to be profitable. Heck, I hate to say it this way, but we should be VERY THANKFUL that there is a Mac version at ALL for us to use. If we make it too difficult for them to release for the Mac, then we might not see any more Combat Mission games released for the Mac. How would that make you feel?

regards

Scott Karch

[audiophyle]

I am very glad that BTS chose to develop on the Mac, thus giving us access to finest wargames out there. I just find it hard to believe that Apple was wrong in pulling RAVE support from OS X. It's a dated technology, and OpenGL is still flourishing, so I can see the reasons right there. Admiring BTS, it's hard for me to criticize them, but they have stumbled upon a "jackpot" wargame, so I think they need to act like every other Mac developer and carbonize their software. I know it's a major deal, but it's not like they use RAVE for Windows, so I'm sure they know how to reprogram their graphics. Plus, if they went with OpenGL, they could nearly do away with Direct3D, as Windows supports OpenGL. In addition, if they reprogrammed CMBB for OpenGL, then CMBO would be easy to change thereafter. I think this would be worth their while in the long run, as they would sell more copies of both games. Every game I play now runs natively on OS X. Heck, even the original Doom and Quake run natively. I've also updated my Mathematica, Virtual PC, and Roxio Toast programs simply because I don't want to boot into OS 9 anymore. OS X is much more stable and I think it's easier to navigate now that I've gotten used to it. It's just too bad that a successful company like BTS is still stuck in the dark ages of the Mac. They have plan for a CM3 & 4, and I'll bet they use RAVE as well. Wargames have a tendency to use an engine until it's completely exhausted, and I suspect the CM series will be no exception, even though BTS could probably afford to develop a new engine, whereas other wargame developers could not afford it. Sorry for the negativity, but I just wanted to voice my opinion. I know I speak for a few of us Mac wargamers out there, at least.

[jeffsmith]

The Good News

Rave is dead with CM:BB

BTS/BFC are not so silly as to try to keep something offically non-supported alive in ongoing game development

the only reason Rave is in CMBB is that it was the Mac supported graphics protocol when the Game was started: then Rave was dropped by Apple after CM:BB was tied to it

Also OSX has caught on much quicker than anyone, including Apple I dare say, thought it would

The Engine re-write to be started after work on CM:BB including any patches is finished: will be OpenGL & OSX native I am quite sure

[ July 10, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: jeffsmith ]

[audiophyle]

Thanks so much for the good news! This is definitely what I wanted to hear, and I will watch the next CM very closely. With any luck, maybe they'll apply the resulting graphics engine to their previous games! (Simply for the benefit of us OS X users.)

[Gen-x87H]

Obvioulsy many on here fail to realize what a major engine rerwrite involves. Especially when you have a single programmer. It is not something you can just do overnight, or even in a few months.

It takes a company with many programmers like id software a couple of years to design a 3d engine like Quake3 or the upcoming Doom3.

So shame on you people for blasting BTS for not rewriting their game at the drop of a whim. And dont go around threatening to not buy the game becuase of Apples stupidity. And I say Apples stupidity because it was Apple who dropped the ball on this one.

They failed to let anybody know about the RAVE issue until it was really to late. Small companies like BTS do not have the time, resources, or the energy to change entire applications becuase Apple has shotty PR.

Deal with it or stop playing the game until the next engine comes out with support for OpenGL.

Gen

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

So mac users that want to use the Power of OSX to get the most out of their Dual Processor systems are Mostly screwed because the raw horse power of the Dual 1 Gig CPU's is largely wasted by OS 9.x

We're hardly "screwed" since all that horsepower is not needed to run CM. CM ran okay on my ancient 200MHz 604e machine under 8.6. It runs beautifully on my 733MHz G4 under 9.1. What's there to complain about? The chief limiting factor is the power of your video card, its features and VRAM.

Michael

[ July 10, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[audiophyle]

Did CMBO not sell enough to hire at least one more programmer? I thought this game was a major success, so why wouldn't BTS want to acquire more help? I realize that it's a major project to rewrite the engine, GUI, and whatever else. I work for a gaming company, so I realize that major programming efforts work better with a team. BTS has achieved success that most dream about, so why wouldn't they hire more help? I'm not trying to bash on them, I'm just curious. If they want to keep the company small, that's fine. And I feel no shame at all not buying a game if it doesn't run on the OS that I prefer, and I will continue to feel free to voice my opinion one way or the other.

[Andreas]

I just thought I post that here again, in case it will be missed at the other place.

CMBB ran very well on an iMac G3 lime with OS 9.x today. No idea about the processor, but it has the stock ATI Rage 8MB card. Even when a number of vehicles were on the map, smoke billowing and stuff, it went well. Sounds good too.

[Wicky]

An OSX compatible version of CM3 please in 2 years, in the meantime it's no great hassle booting back and forth ( I have G4 DP450 with OSX and two OS9 systems - one for classic and the other for Quark and CMBO) . But for newcomers to the newer Macs with preinstalled OSX and classic I can imagine the confusion and hassle of installation and rebooting.

[kmead]

Audiophyle:

First off, we are all lucky enough to be able to voice our opinions here and we are happy you can and do. When OSX really got rolling I was really strong on the bandwagon for a update of CMBO, I suspect to the point that Matt was willing or at least interested in seeing the last of me , happily there were more annoying people around at the time.

Yes, its alright to vote with your wallet as well, even an excellent thing depending on the cause. In this case however, I believe you may be biting your nose to spite your face. Not buying the Mac version of CMBB will send the wrong message as the fewer Mac sales they have on CMBB the less likely they may be to continue to develop for the Mac. With CMBB there will be a Mac disk and a MSW disk, so they will be able to very clearly track sales by platform.

No one outside of the fine folks at BTS/BFC know how many sales there were, and only they know what their business can support in terms of personnel. CMBO was built by a small team, Charles and Steve. The code I am sure is very personal and therefor most clearly understood by Charles who primarily wrote it. For him to explain to another individual what was done and why and then manage them doing the work is a job in and of itself. Could a team do a faster job? Of course, once the team got rolling. It would be a much different job for Steve and Charles, who both came from big game houses in the past. I think in starting this company they intentionally chose not to go that route for a variety of reasons. Before they hired Matt and Martin to do whatever it is that they do I am sure they thought long and hard about enlarging the company relative to their final aims. Consider that each full time employee costs @100K+ after all the taxes and insurance are accounted for. That means they have to ensure they will earn that money back plus the necessary ROI for putting their or a banks money on the line until the product is sold. Does their approach have a cost? Sure, if CMBB came out a few months earlier they would have more possible selling days for the product (this is a opportunity cost) versus the sunk investment that those selling days would require with more employees. I suspect that BTS has larger personal issues about adding staff: finding the right people who they want to work with for a long time; ensuring that they have a viable business model that can support more people for an extended period so they don't have to RIF people they care about; and others I don't fathom.

So can you boycott the product? Yup. Will it help? Probably not. I will buy CMBB for a variety of reasons. First I think it will be a first rate product that I will enjoy and in all likelyhood I will buy the Mac version for myself and the MSW version for my Dad. Second I respect the people that are producing the product, they put their names out there, put their beliefs out there and in general are real standup people. The type that in my circles get referred to as "good people", and therefor worth standing up for as they would stand up for you.

So I urge you to do what you want as is your right and just hope that includes CMBB whether it works in OSX or not.

[kmead]

Andreas

I just thought I post that here again, in case it will be missed at the other place.

CMBB ran very well on an iMac G3 lime with OS 9.x today. No idea about the processor, but it has the stock ATI Rage 8MB card. Even when a number of vehicles were on the map, smoke billowing and stuff, it went well. Sounds good too.

This is great news, I have been very worried about this issue as I plug along at home with my G3 400 Lime iMac. Thanks for that info. Big thumbs up!

[ July 12, 2002, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: kmead ]