To the Last Man

[PeterX]

Joseph Goebbells in his diary (paraphrased), circa 1942 :"Russians refuse to surrender. They're like animals". Whether it's natural, glassy eyed zeal, the unappealing alternative of Nazi captivity, or the grim, pistol packing NKVD officers behind them there was a tendancy for some Soviet units on the front to fight to the last man. Not every formation, all the time, but often enough. Certain German SS units, and volksturm during, for example, the Battle of Berlin, displayed similiar suicidal enthusiasm.

The war, IMO, was basically about quality versus numbers; German pros versus Soviet hordes. I feel this is the theme of the Russo-German War, for most of its duration. Judging by the demo, I'm not sure how well CMBB will handle extreme casualty tolerance.

There may be a trick to advancing the Russian grunts in the Yelnia scenario, but I haven't figured it out. I noticed that none of the Russian platoon HQs were rated +1 or +2 in morale which may be one of the reasons they resist all motivational efforts.

In CMBB as in CMBO, there are only three gradations of morale: 0,+1,+2. In order, to model a fight-to-the-last-grunt platoon you'd probably need a HQ morale of, say, +6. And, IMO, it shouldn't matter whether the unit in question is rated conscript or veteran, fit or unfit. The new Human Wave command is for offense only.

CMBO included a provision for assigning a 'fanatical'rating on a random, non-assignable basis. It doesn't appear this will be an option in CMBB. (Of course, it might!)

[Michael Dorosh]

John Ellis will agree with you about "Brute Force" and numbers winning out, but don't underestimate Soviet operational and tactical skill by 1944.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

John Ellis will agree with you about "Brute Force" and numbers winning out, but don't underestimate Soviet operational and tactical skill by 1944.

Couldyou just bounce the turn? You can fast forard through it and send back the file. thx,

[Lars]

I just finished the Yelnia scenario last night as Russians.

There were 7 men o.k. on the German side when they surrendered.

Seemed fanatical enough for me.

Which brings up the question, who would you rather surrender to?

Talk about being between the Devil and the deep blue sea.

[Chad Harrison]

Well, I have yet to see any Russians surrender. They seem to prefer running into open ground and being shot down there. Reminds me of the SL days of being eliminated for failure to route. Now that makes a lot more sense.

Chad

[PeterX]

Lars posted:

Which brings up the question, who would you rather surrender to?

Talk about being between the Devil and the deep blue sea.

Too true, in CMBB, you'll be faced with the dilemma of commanding the bad guys or the worse guys. I'm sure we'll get used to it!

Seemed fanatical enough for me.

There are accounts of Russian infantry advancing against withering fire, stepping on mines, and eventually shredding every single man. Yet they advanced. This is not possible in the Yelnia Stare battle, as constructed.

[MikeyD]

Remember, in the scenario editor (CMBO and CMBB) you can adjust 'fanatacism' up to +50% for all troops. I don't have any idea what the fanatacism change does but I bet it makes for more casualties. As to fanacism levels on the REAL eastern front, imagine watching an SS company entering the western end of your home town and knowing your family is trapped in the eastern end. THAT makes for fanatacism!

If you're hoping for appropriately high casualty rates in the full game don't forget you'll be able to do a Nebelwerfer opening barrage if you so choose! Turn the enemy trenches into a freakin' lunar landscape!

[PeterX]

MikeyD posted:

Remember, in the scenario editor (CMBO and CMBB) you can adjust 'fanatacism' up to +50% for all troops.

I remember that provision from CMBO, but didn't notice it in the Demo readme file. Personally, I'd prefer that this rating was assigned by the scenario creator, but I understand the rationale for making it random as well. Some of the East Front battles will make no sense without it.

If so, one supposes Battlefront could have chosen better scenarios for the demo.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by PeterX:

If so, one supposes Battlefront could have chosen better scenarios for the demo.

I take it you've been around here long enough to know that your asbestos underwear is about to be tested.

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by PeterX:

If so, one supposes Battlefront could have chosen better scenarios for the demo.

[Yelnia spoiler]…

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Actually, I agree with him. I’m assuming that the Yelnia scenario was chosen to demonstrate how a small number of Germans equipped with MGs could hold off hordes of Soviets, as well as other features, like partially depleted squads, which it did accomplish, but at the expense of fun. I will probably find the scenario fun once I am more familiar with CMBB, but for a demo, I just found it frustrating trying to figure out how my German forces were organized, and which ones were taking casualties as opposed to having suffered casualties before the scenario began. My opponent was frustrated by the amount of time required to issue orders to all his Soviet troops, only to have to repeat the tedious process each turn when a little enemy fire caused the conscripts to ignore the orders from the previous turn. Of course, the problem was compounded by the fact that we were playing a timed TCP game. But I still think for a demo, they should have picked a scenario where players had more control over their troops and the terrain provided for some tactical opportunities instead of the ‘everything forward’ option Yelnia provided. I think the Citadel scenario did all these things and was a lot of fun.

Ace

[PeterX]

Actually, I agree with him. I’m assuming that the Yelnia scenario was chosen to demonstrate how a small number of Germans equipped with MGs could hold off hordes of Soviets, as well as other features, like partially depleted squads, which it did accomplish, but at the expense of fun.

About as much fun as auto-dental surgery. This was an opportunity to showcase a recurring theme in the histories of the era: gritty, outnumbered German vets gunning down wave after wave of advancing Soviet zombies. In Yelnia, the Russians could been made, perhaps a bit less numerous, and instead endowed with fanaticism™ and morale-maxed out platoon HQs. That would have made a show! Even without the two tank platoons.

I found the Kursk scenario more interesting, although the action developed verrry sloooowly; it needed more tension and perhaps a combined arms element. The tutorial, though unbalanced, had its charms. (Note the past tense; I won't be replaying them)

I'm a fan so I'll order the game anyway but I don't think BFC will be converting any fence sitters with these two offerings.

[ September 08, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Lars]

Originally posted by PeterX:

About as much fun as auto-dental surgery. This was an oppurtunity to showcase a recurring theme in the histories of the era: gritty German vets gunning down wave after wave of advancing Soviet zealots. In Yelnia, the Russians could been made, perhaps a bit less numerous, but endowed with fantaticism™ and morale-maxed out platoon HQs. That would have made a show!

I've played both sides once and won it either way.

Overrunning as Russians and machinegunning them as Germans.

What did you miss?

[PeterX]

Lars posted:

I've played both sides once and won it either way.

Overrunning as Russians and machinegunning them as Germans.

What did you miss?

Uh, the micromanagement?

Actually, I won this scenario as the Soviets. I achieved a Total Victory with the T34s and 50m mortar teams, leaving the hapless infantry back at the starting gate. I gather BFC intended that this battle be played from the Allied side.

[hobo]

I am halfway through Yelnia as the Ruskies and have had to change my tactics 100%. My plan as successfully done with CMBO was to probe with infantry and then punch with armor. I now feel I must probe with armor and punch with infantry. It will be interesting playing real live opponents. This game seems so different I am not sure if playing CMBO is an advantage or disadvantage.

Hobo

[Fionn]

Why not utilise Soviet tactics? None of this gamey BS that abounded in CM:BO and on the ladders but ordinary, basic tactics that were used in the real world?

I've had no problems over-running numerically equal and qualitatively superior German defenders with Soviet infantry backed by a couple of tanks and negligible artillery support.

It all just comes down to using the terrain and implementing basic tactics no matter whether you are on the Western Front or the Eastern Front.

Concentrate on reading the terrain and conforming to it with your plan and tactics and everything will fall into place.

I think you may also find that the whole "quality vs hordes" things has been over-played by both German and NATO propagandists. As a single stroke picture of the Eastern Front it is acceptable but a single brush stroke does NOT a painting make. If you want to paint a complete picture you need hundreds of brush strokes which inter-relate in myriad ways. The same goes for historical detail.

[Jagdwyrm]

In Yelnia it is best to use youre support to area fire when you advance. Even using your T-34s a bit(dont waste too much of thier ammo though). If a squad breaks and runs ....let him have company HQs deal with the ones that need rallied,and send them up when they are ready.

You have so much support (mortars,MGs,not to mention the 6 tanks) with enough ammo to get your infantry in.

[Agua]

Originally posted by Jagdwyrm:

In Yelnia it is best to use youre support to area fire when you advance. Even using your T-34s a bit(dont waste too much of thier ammo though). If a squad breaks and runs ....let him have company HQs deal with the ones that need rallied,and send them up when they are ready.

You have so much support (mortars,MGs,not to mention the 6 tanks) with enough ammo to get your infantry in.

I'll echo this. You get quite a few Maxims and mortars. Find an axis of advance that is least exposed and pour area fire from the MG's all over the frickin' place on the positions which can fire upon your axis of advance, even if you can't see where the fire is coming from, initially. Once you start seeing tracers, adjust the area fire towards the suspected sources of the tracers, then continue adjustment as positions are revealed. That's really about the only micro management that was involved for me, aside from rallying squads with a trailing HQ unit. Let the conscripts / greenies put a base of fire down upon a strong position rather than assault it - - let tanks and regs do the tough work. Let your troops rest frequently as their fatigue heavily influences their morale and they appear to tire much more quickly in CMBB.

I tried playing Yelnia with CMBO tactics probably 5 times, quitting early in frustration each time, before I quit being hardheaded and tried to apply some of the stuff folks have been suggesting on the board. It worked.

[PeterX]

Fionn posted:

I've had no problems over-running numerically equal and qualitatively superior German defenders with Soviet infantry backed by a couple of tanks and negligible artillery support.

I Knew this was coming.

Fionn, if the battles in CMBB are tuned to your skills as a beta tester we're all in trouble. I submit that, remembering the eviscerating purges of the pre-war years, the profiency level was rather low on the Soviet side. Crudity in tactics and hence profligacy with human life were the ordre du jour. I suspect that you, fortified with wargaming experience, would acquitted yourself better than the typical Soviet mid-level commander in '41.

It all just comes down to using the terrain and implementing basic tactics no matter whether you are on the Western Front or the Eastern Front.

There's no cover on this map for the Soviets. Maybe if one spent the afternoon snooping around at level 1 one could detect a minute depression or two...As if Napoleon, distrusting his famous coup d'oeil, got down on his knees with surveying tools while his enemies, good sports that they were, waited. This is supposed to be a 25 mintue battle.

Bottom line: I can't see Soviets conscripts crashing into the German line in any significant numbers. Show me the file.

I think you may also find that the whole "quality vs hordes" things has been over-played

No doubt. Sometimes, Russian formations surrendered en masse after a whiff of combat. After all, over a million deserted and joined the invaders. But they happened. BFC's inclusion of the Human Wave command testifies to the reality of a charnel house approach that was especially prevalent on the eastern front. And not only on the Russian side- check out the Last Battle by Cornelius Ryan.

The morale levels in the Yelnia scenario, as constructed, are simply too low to replicate that kind of battle. At times, the Russian troops weren't brave enough to be cowards.

Jagd posted:

In Yelnia it is best to use youre support to area fire when you advance. Even using your T-34s a bit(dont waste too much of thier ammo though). If a squad breaks and runs

A Total Victory can be gained with the tanks alone.

[ September 08, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Terence]

i feel rather stupid. on my first runthough vs. AI, I was minorly defeated. oh woe is me.