Console CM...

[FFE]

Yunfat’s idea is not far fetched. Right now CM is doing quite well if the feedback from BFC is any indication. BFC took a chance by going direct sales via the Internet, then an up and coming sales and marketing medium. The future of computers vs. console is narrowing. Now that consoles are going to be able to interact with the Internet things are becoming far fuzzier. Consoles are nearly pure gaming machines. They lack the entire overhead when you boot up your Mac or PC. MacOS and Win are very inefficient compared to consoles. Consoles have already started to break into different markets. Can you say DVD player with your gaming machine? That’s innovation. MS coming into the field is going to make for greater competition.

Therefore a few issues arise. Does BFC want to tackle the corporate world so that they can make their game playable by millions instead of thousands? That is not an easy question to answer. Console gaming is the future. People un-rightly think consoles are solely for the first world shooter games or driving hopped up pick-up trucks through barricades. The only thing holding on to desktop/laptop computing is the business world. But when it comes to home entertainment, consoles are entrenched.

People may think CM would become less of a game if the ‘common’ folk got access. This is purely an elitist point of view. Undoubtedly there are huge costs for the development and distribution. But the roots of CM would remain cemented by historical representation and operational standards. From a business point of view, it is a no-brainer.

[Redwolf]

Thoughts:

consoles are actually not the strongest platform for first-person shooters, at least not for competive play. You want a mouse, high screen resolution and lots of graphical tuning for competive FPS play.

And for CM you want a mouse and high reolution, too. It is just not console's strength.

[BFawlty]

I really get a kick out of these arguments. As far as consoles playing FPS, I've played all of them the PC offers, from Doom on up, and I would place HAlo at or near the top of the heap. The pad was easy to pick up and get use to, I never missed the mouse keyboard setup. As far as the "elitists" attitudes towards the masses getting at CM I could care less, my first concern would be how would the game port to console. And that is a question for more technically adept minds than mine!

BF

[Sailor Malan]

What an interesting discussion! (Sarcasm mode off)

I have to admit, I think trying to do CM for a console would be a bit like selling an electric toothbrush to a cave man. He doesn't know he needs a toothbrush, he hasn't got electricity, and doesn't use money! In other words you are talking to an audience that in the main has no interest in, or want for turn based strategy games (or serious war games) :confused: . The defining features of console games appear to be speed, no great brain power, levels that can be completed before granny wants to watch the soaps, and flash graphics. Sorry if this mis-represents console games, but that's what I've seen.

CM for me is 75% thinking/planning, 25% mouse work. I have never seen a console game that is more than 5% thinking, 95% game controller.

CM isn't even RTS, (not that I want it to be) and I would have thought that would be a closer match to consoles.

I liked that skateboard/BMW comparison, but the real comparison is that console owners are scateboarders, and CM players are close to BMW drivers. If you gave a skateboarder a BMW he would either have to stop skateboarding, or he would rate it as a C*&^ skateboard.

Nuff said

Fortunately, I think BTS are more likely to open a global hamburger franchise than port to a console. Roll on CMBB!!!

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Sailor Malan:

I think BTS are more likely to open a global hamburger franchise than port to a console.

Oooooh I hope they do - can you imagine the toys you'd get in a happy meal?

[Incognito]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yunfat:

Lets get BTS to sell out now! Then our kids could actually learn something, and humanity will be saved.

Sorry to put this so bluntly, but you must be mad. The only thing we would get after a sell-out is a crappy piece of junk that would teach kids about as much about anything as Doom modded for Vietnam does.</font>

[Panzer Leader]

Didn't they port 'Panzer General' to sega or somefink a few years ago? How'd it fare?

(Devil's Advocate)

The idea is ridiculous and impossible beyond comparison.

(Truth)

[yunfat]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Thoughts:

consoles are actually not the strongest platform for first-person shooters, at least not for competive play. You want a mouse, high screen resolution and lots of graphical tuning for competive FPS play.

And for CM you want a mouse and high reolution, too. It is just not console's strength.

X-box and Ps2 come with USB for things like keyboards and mice... Gamecube and X-box both feature 480 Progressive Scan, which on any decent size HDTV looks a lot better than CM does on my 21" monitor, imho.

[Priest]

Yun

I have a 47'widescreen high definition TV that is flatscreen in my living room. And you know what, CMBO looks better on my trinitron in my game room. Nice try but it is not the truth.

CM is not coming to the console, it's market is not there, and hence there is no need to spend the money to do so. And the CM code is worth something, so far every dollar BTS has made on it. And as far as an 80's 3D engine, yeah whatever, I do not remember many 3D game engines in the 80's. Do not confuse intentional low res graphics to the capability of the engine itself.

And the game is not turnbased it is WEGO.

And finally the PS2, XBOX, and Gamecube are stuck in a five year lifecycle with little are no hardware upgrade possible, which means that upgrades to the code and graphics of CM would be limited on anything but a full upgradeable PC. Last time I checked we have one hell of a mod community and I am pretty sure my CMBO game is a hi res fest to the eyes, in fact I am sure it is.

Sorry Yun that is reality. Learn to love it.

[bfamily33]

Originally posted by Sailor Malan:

CM for me is 75% thinking/planning, 25% mouse work. I have never seen a console game that is more than 5% thinking, 95% game controller.

Well said. For me, I'd revert to an old Apple II and Computer Ambush with the grease pencil before I buy a game machine. As for Sony, Nintendo and MS. No thanks, don't forget what Hasbro did to SL.

[Capricornelius]

I won't proffer any particular views on consoles, but I certainly agree with a saving replay capability! I've seen some great effects that I would have loved to save to watch over & over again with popcorn, nachos & barbeque sauce, etc.

[ June 26, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Capricornelius ]

[Tarquelne]

CM is not coming to the console, it's market is not there, and hence there is no need to spend the money to do so.

That's very true.

No 3D graphics intensive WEGO wargame of CMBO's quality has EVER done well in the console market. And no one has ever made money trying to sell a product where there wasn't a well established market already. Furthermore, the console market is completely static - the technology isn't evolving, and the userbase is shrinking. Everyone knows that there's no overlap between the console and PC demographic, and that console gamers take drugs that suppress the pituitary gland and freeze them at a physiological and psychological 12 years old. (And that console gamers are born missing 4 genes, too.)

Whoops, slipped from sarcasm into absurdity at the end there.

C'mon guys. I don't think porting CM to a console is practical, and "selling out" on BTS's part would almost certainly result in a farce. But as long as the console tech. contines to get better, and especially as the market gets bigger and more diverse, it becomes more and more likely that someone could make a "butt load" (I think that's a technical term in console marketing) of $$ feeding the action-tile-glutted console market a great but good looking strategy game. Such as CMBO. (I personally have hooked 3 non-wargamers on CMBO, including my wife.) I think it's too soon... but the idea isn't absurd.

upgrades to the code and graphics of CM would be limited on anything but a full upgradeable PC.

It's amazing how many times I havn't upgraded my OS or hardware to take advantage of CM mods and patches. But, sorry, it is a good point. As long as consoles can only read from cartrages, and can't use an internet connection or discs there can be no "mod community" or upgrades for a console game. Maybe sometime around 2010... but now, 1990? No way.

[ June 26, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzerman:Hum, Doug, don't you have "other" things you should be spending your time doing?

While I'm at work, I have to at least LOOK like I'm participating in the sales process. Playtesting CM battles won't cut it

DjB</font>

[yunfat]

Originally posted by Priest:

Yun

I have a 47'widescreen high definition TV that is flatscreen in my living room. And you know what, CMBO looks better on my trinitron in my game room. Nice try but it is not the truth.

And finally the PS2, XBOX, and Gamecube are stuck in a five year lifecycle with little are no hardware upgrade possible, which means that upgrades to the code and graphics of CM would be limited on anything but a full upgradeable PC. Last time I checked we have one hell of a mod community and I am pretty sure my CMBO game is a hi res fest to the eyes, in fact I am sure it is.

Sorry Yun that is reality. Learn to love it.

First, I said it was my opinion that my HDTV could display CM at high res. My HDTV is very good, some are not as good... needless to say, I play many console games that have better, higher res textures and look better than CM, and there is at least as much going on on screen as in a typical CM game, with realtime lighting.

---

The five year life cycle you refer to in the console market is there for a reason... to keep graphics and games up to date, in other words, the big players all beleive that graphics need to be updated and refreshed every so often, much like BTS is doing now with CMBB. It should also be noted that PS2 is backward compatible with PS1,and if PS3 is backward compatible with PS2, you would be effectively lengthening the life of code to much longer than the 5 years you mention.

If you read my original post you would see that all Next Gen consoles are internet capable this fall, and will have HD's, some already do. Mods would work the same way as on a pc, except the game would have built in mod editor (which it needs now).

Just to clarify, I am certain a port of CM will never make it to a console, at least by BTS... however, many games similar to CM will arrive on a console soon (largely because WW2 games are all the rage) , maybe not published by BTS or having anything to do with BTS, and maybe inferior in every way to CM, however, it will be a cash machine for whoever publishes it. It will be a CM lite for the masses, and it may be fun because of its simplicity.

[Sir Uber General]

Consoles are nice and all, but I'd rather see BTS spend their time sticking a phat 3D engine into CM. Imagine CMBO running with a Q3 / Doom2 level engine!

If BTS decided to license an existing 3D engine that already ran on a console as well as a PC, then it may actually become less work to do the port in the future than it appears to be now.

Just my $0.02

[Priest]

And Yun that is the point, have you read the BTS Manifesto?

And for your information my TV is top of the line thank you very much.

BTW being backwards compatible has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The 5 year lifecycle of a console game system restricts the designers, period. CMBB is going to be graphically superior to to CMBO and is coming within two years of CMBO. Now this can happen because we can all upgrade our PCs rather easily and for a decently low amount. The same could not be said for your console game. So yes you could download mods but could you system handle them. If it could not could you buy a better video card for your PS2? No you cannot.

So if a game company wants to port a game to a new console system they have to realize that the next installation of the game series (if they choose to port it again) most likely either has to wait 5 years (the current life cycle) or limit itself to what the consoles can do. And just for your info, none of the consoles currently out are nearly as powerful as my PC, and I am on PIII technology.

Lastly Yun, CM Lite for the masses is not CM. CM for the masses is watered down, dumbed down, healthbarred out, realtimed, bloodletting, bang-bang-pow-pow, pretty graphics but someone forgot the substance bullcrap of a game. It is called Sudden Strike by the way. CM (not CM-lite or whatever else you call it) is not for the masses, it is for the "advanced" gamers who need more than pretty lights and over the top animations. It is a thinking persons game, that is the reality of the situation and no matter how you twist and turn the words it will still be that way.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Priest:

[snips]

CM (not CM-lite or whatever else you call it) is not for the masses, it is for the "advanced" gamers who need more than pretty lights and over the top animations.

In other words, CM is unconsolable.

Personally, I am rather bemused as to why consoles, PCs and a variety of other computing devices cannot be programmed in the same high-order language. Obviously the idea of HOLs is terribly old-fashioned and 1960s.

All the best,

John.

[Capricornelius]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Obviously the idea of HOLs is terribly old-fashioned and 1960s.

All the best,

John.

1960s??? What does that mean?

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Capricornelius:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

Obviously the idea of HOLs is terribly old-fashioned and 1960s.

All the best,

John.

1960s??? What does that mean? </font>

[Capricornelius]

Originally posted by Firefly:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Capricornelius:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

Obviously the idea of HOLs is terribly old-fashioned and 1960s.

All the best,

John.

1960s??? What does that mean? </font>

[Jarmo]

I wonder..

Sure, console players don't play strategy games, so nobody makes them. But might the reason be that a good strategy game for a game console doesn't exist, a totally untapped market.

I bought Kessen for my PS2 thinking it might be a good one, but it wasn't. It was kind of ok for a while, but utter crap really in the longer run. Mostly graphics and very little brainwork.

CM might sell well, or not at all. My guess is it'd sell well.

I trust both Xbox and Cube could run CMBO. There's just about enough ram and power for it. PS2 probably couldn't but who knows...