Console CM...

[yunfat]

With the advent of broadband enabled next generation consoles (Gamecube, PS2, X-Box) I feel its time we convince BTS that CM can also be played on these new machines, in the living room, in front of the kids and by the kids. First, let me say that CM would need a major overhaul to be playable on such devices, however, the X-box is practically a pc, and a port could be acheived in a short period of time, and be profitable, imho. The argument that BTS doesn't want their product on a console for fear someone will copy the code, or produce copycat games that may dilute a genre in which they currently entertain a monopoly (squad level combat), is mute, as about half a dozen games currently in production could be considered CM copycats already. Perhaps a large publisher revolts BTS so much that they are willing to forego a piece of the Next-Gen pie? A massively multiplayer WW2 title is what console gamers are demanding... if BTS has no interest in this thats fine, but it will be a cash cow for someone, as gamers already purchase even the most lackluster WW2 games. Let me also say that doing a console version would do CM some good, largely because it lacks polish (which may or may not be resolved in CMBB, I don't know). By polish, I refer to the crucial things CM will need before it could become golden master on a console (yes I know this is beating a dead horse):

1)Stable code that doesn't crash.

2)A refined GUI with better menus and button layout.

3)A better 3d engine with particle effects, smoke trails, and things like muzzle flash and realtime lighting.

4)Saving replays of turns in movie form to show your friends.

5)An in-game walkthrough that summarizes the 150 page manual.

Before you guys get crazy as to why this could never happen, let me first clear up some of the myths surrounding the consoles:

1)They are all internet capable this fall, and I have already played both Ps2 and X-box games over cable modem.

2)They have the horsepower, my ibook runs CM fine (300mhz ppc), and all the new consoles are rated at 300mhz or greater and produce graphics of far greater detail than anything I have seen on computers. My gamecube renders hundreds of little creatures simultaneously in realtime lighting... they could just as easily be Volkstrum.

3)"I play CM with a mouse and keyboard, not some stupid controller"... X-box and PS2 are usb plug and play, keyboards, mice, they all work.

4)Mods. X-box has a 8Gb HD, sony ships a Ps2 HD in October.

Oh, and did I mention the caption on the back of the box...

"Over 1000 scenarios available for download online, hundreds of players await your challenge"

Now, what console game can offer that?

Are you with me? Let's not wait 5 years for an engine rewrite (j/k). Lets get BTS to sell out now! Then our kids could actually learn something, and humanity will be saved.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by yunfat:

Lets get BTS to sell out now! Then our kids could actually learn something, and humanity will be saved.

Sorry to put this so bluntly, but you must be mad. The only thing we would get after a sell-out is a crappy piece of junk that would teach kids about as much about anything as Doom modded for Vietnam does.

[PawBroon]

Well that Pink Gook who fired green fire was scary.

Boy I was glad I had CAS on call.

And Power Ups.

We want PUs!!

[Firefly]

Originally posted by PawBroon:

Well that Pink Gook who fired green fire was scary.

Boy I was glad I had CAS on call.

And Power Ups.

We want PUs!!

We've got power-ups already, they're marked with skull and crossbones signs. Just drive your tank over one and it will be restored to full health. Honest.

The main reason that there should be no console version is the health of this forum. Morrowind was released for both PC and XBOX and take a look at their official forum; it makes the BFC General Forum on a bad day look like the height of reasoned discussion.

[Soddball]

Why would you port CM to a console? Console games are (for the most part) one-dimensional. I don't want to play Final Fantasy LVXXIIII. I don't want to play Movie Cash-in XIV. Console gamers are not, by and large, wargamers - the demographic is different.

[DrAlimantado]

I would love to see a console version of CM. Mainly because ot would piss off all the holy grog-types we got on this board. Well, you know ... the kind of people who thinks that owning a computer made post-1990, is to sell out to the quake 3 crowd.

Sorry Andreas, to put this so bluntly, but you need to get laid. Would you care to elaborate on how CM would transform into a piece of junk, if ported into a console game? As far as I know, Microsoft does not send goons armed with baseball bats to the developers, in order to ensure that the game developers make crappy games for the xbox.

Oh, forgot one of these:

Baby Spice

[Priest]

While Andreas does not need me to do this, Andreas allow me to field this one.

I own every game system out since the atari 2600 with the exception of the Atari Jaguar and the 3DO. I think there was a brief Panasonic venture I am missing also, but all the big boys are in my living room (or my game room) with regards to console game systems. Actually I bailed on the XBOX, it sucks, but on to my point.

There is a definitive line between a "console" game and a "PC Game". Normally PC games cannot go to the console well, but console games can come to the PC and be about the same. PC games tend to be deeper and slower than console games. Simulations have always been better on the PC, not just because of hardware, but due to the markets each appeals to. And while the hardware is changing the markets are not. As Sega about their SegaNet venture if you do not believe me. There will obviously be some narrowing of the gap but it is still quite evident that console gamers and PC gamers want different things. I am both, and I expect different things from each. I expect NeverWinter Nights to be an indepth adventure heavy on the tools side of things. I expect Final Fantasy games to wow me with effects and sound and tell me a wrenching story of epic proportions that I interact within.

Lastly Dr-whatever-your-name-is but Andreas was not talking about Console versus PC but the effect "selling-out" has on pretty much every piece of software ever made by a small dedicated focused company to a large commercial market controlled company. Do the names Squad Leader or Halo mean anything to you? One sucks and the other went from revolutionary to "a pretty FPS". I would read what others write before you attack them.

Andreas have at him! There are more holes in his argument than in a Sherman staring down a battalion of Tigers.

[JMcGuire]

I can give you a couple great reasons they shouldn't do this.

First of all, developer licenses for all those platforms are extremely expensive for a company of BTS's size.

Second, the similarity between a PC and those consoles, even an XBOX, isn't as great as you think. If it's taking them this long to build CMBB, and it's heavily based on existing code, they'd basically NEVER be able to ship a product for even one additional platform. It would be outdated before they could finish it.

Third, at least on the XBOX and PS2 (I don't know about the GameCube) there are enormous royalties to pay to MS or Sony for every copy sold. That's cash directly out of BTS's pocket. If they aren't interested in the traditional publisher/retail channels today, you can bet they don't want to pay Console Tax any time in the near future.

Fourth, while I love CM, frankly its graphics suck by any modern standards. Its complexity and its graphics would probably make it a flop. I think this was the point Andreas was making.

I can probably come up with more reasons if you want...

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by Priest:

Lastly Dr-whatever-your-name-is but Andreas was not talking about Console versus PC but the effect "selling-out" has on pretty much every piece of software ever made by a small dedicated focused company to a large commercial market controlled company. Do the names Squad Leader or Halo mean anything to you? One sucks and the other went from revolutionary to "a pretty FPS". I would read what others write before you attack them.

Ok, calm down Priest. (That sounded strange, coming from an atheist). I decided to stomp Andreas on the foot because he had a knee-jerk reaction against console games in general. What you are talking about (quantity vs quality), is interesting, but not contained in Andreas banter, nor is it necessary that a CM port over to the console market would constitute a "sell-out".

Firstly, do I believe that a console version of CM is likely? Nope. Not at all. From my point of view, what speaks against a console version is the conflict between BFC as an independent company, and the gaming royalties within the console market. But that has no bearing on the game itself or the quality of it, this is just a conflict in economic interests.

Hmm ... btw ... What does Halo or Squad Leader to do with wether CM could potentially be a high quality game on a console? Halo was delayed because the rights were bought up by MS, and they decided to hold it past its best before date. SL by Hasbro was bad because they used an old engine with sloppy research, published by a company notorious for bad games. And this has to do what with anything?

Look, all I am trying to say is that I would not mind seing a serious wargame on the console market.

M

[The_Capt]

PC = BMW

Console = Skateboard

Pretty much says it all.

From your resident Marketing scumbag.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by DrAlimantado:

Ok, calm down Priest. (That sounded strange, coming from an atheist). I decided to stomp Andreas on the foot because he had a knee-jerk reaction against console games in general. What you are talking about (quantity vs quality), is interesting, but not contained in Andreas banter, nor is it necessary that a CM port over to the console market would constitute a "sell-out".

Mattias, I know that reading (or generally understanding anything) is not really your strongpoint, so I won't be too harsh.

I will just recommend that you look at the point of the message I quoted, and then read my reply again. In fact, nothing about consoles is included in my banter.

If you still don't get it, have your lovely girlfriend fiancee whatever read it to you, or explain it to you using a set of cardboards with pictures drawn on them. Or get laid with her, I don't really care. I mean come on, even Priest got it Where did you get your university degree? At a raffle, or University of Lund? That would explain your utter lack of comprehension displayed here.

Say hi to her too, and I hope things are horrible in the south of Sweden, and that you still collectively suffer for the abject failure of your team against England, or somefink. And then sodd off and shoot a Ren.

[Michael Dorosh]

Wow, I thought I was irascible and obnoxious lately; Dr. A takes the cake. I think we all need to get out more....

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Wow, I thought I was irascible and obnoxious lately; Dr. A takes the cake. I think we all need to get out more....

He probably just needs to get laid

[Farslayer]

Originally posted by yunfat:

1)Stable code that doesn't crash.

Might just be me, but I have never had CM crash, lock-up, or BSOD.

NEXT!

A massively multiplayer WW2 title is what console gamers are demanding...

Hmm... I must have been asleep or somefink while the hordes of console gamers demonstrated publicly voiced their outcry over the lack of just such a game...

Originally posted by: DrAlimantado

I would love to see a console version of CM. Mainly because it would piss off all the holy grog-types we got on this board. Well, you know ... the kind of people who thinks that owning a computer made post-1990, is to sell out to the quake 3 crowd.

Well, you just showed yourself to be possibly more narrow-minded that those supposed grog-types you defamed.

Being only a demi-grog in comparison to some others more knowledgeable on this board, let me voice my own opinion.

CM is CM and has this specific group of adherents, customers and fans because it is not Command and Conquer, it is not Red Alert, it is not Star Wars Galactic Battleground.

It also is not Close Combat, another game which started out very nicely, back when it was just Atomic Games. I have Utah Beach, I have Gold, Juno, Sword. I have many of the old Atomic games, replicating board games on the PC. When CC came out, it was good, and there was GREAT POTENTIAL, but as subsequent versions came out (CC2, CC3, and a few more unsavory versions) and other companies got involved, the great potential was squandered or lost.

CM is the redemption of the hard-core wargame, built by some hardcore wargamers for, guess who?, hardcore wargamers. Naturally, all the early adopters of CM (Did you pre-order the game??? I did) want to see it keep true to these roots. I personally choose to believe that BTS reached its intended audience, and that audience responded. Given the large number of fan websites with groggy content I think your statement is far wide of the mark.

As for the next versions, doodads are cool, bigger battlefields are cool, more realism in the graphics is cool, and a multiplayer net game would be cool. But for me, all those features take a back seat to further improvements to any of the following: 3D analytical engine, vehicles, armaments, tactical AI, strategic AI.

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Wow, I thought I was irascible and obnoxious lately; Dr. A takes the cake. I think we all need to get out more....

I've just received a shipment of "Captain Caveman Brand Extra-Large Girlfriend Sacks." We could slink about in the wee hours, working on our capturing stance and choice of footwear. I'm leaning toward Altama's GI-issue combat boots, as they give very good traction, are fairly quiet, and will protect my feet in case my quarry manages to stomp on them.

DjB

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by Andreas:

If you still don't get it, have your lovely girlfriend fiancee whatever read it to you, or explain it to you using a set of cardboards with pictures drawn on them. Or get laid with her, I don't really care. I mean come on, even Priest got it

Hmm ... I have read your first post, and I must say that I am completely missing the hidden messages that says anything else than what it says in ordinary English grammar. Do you think I would get it if I got laid with Priest?

Did we lose against England? To be honest, I have not really been paying attention. But if you say so. Heh, if Englands gets better self-esteem by beating Sweden in football, then I am all for it. You can even keep Svennis, free of charge.

I'll say hi to T, when I meet up with her on Monday. We'll try to visit London during xmas sometime.

M

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by Andreas:

That and nicotine.

M

[Andreas]

Originally posted by DrAlimantado:

I'll say hi to T, when I meet up with her on Monday. We'll try to visit London during xmas sometime.

M

Let me know when, so that I can arrange my own travel accordingly.

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Let me know when, so that I can arrange my own travel accordingly.

Will try to. When are the big book sales in London? First or second week of January?

M

[Venjra ICQ 2126434]

Hello guys:

The idea of a Turn based game like CM to consoles sounds scary to me. I have already played a tittle called Advance Wars on the gameboy advance and it is a very nice game, but I cant imagine playing CM against a 13 year old. In terms of age, Tactical games are a hit on Asia for kids....not in the USA.

I understand that making a PS2 or Xbox game of this sort would ruin the comunity wich is the greatest thing about CM Wargamers. I have never seen peolpe so devoted to a game, I have CM it scince last year and it is embeded in the CD Rom drive.

As far as Im concerned CM greatness comes from The forums and the comunity. I wouldnt like to see this forum spoiled with childish coments or having gamey tactics used in scenarios. :mad:

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Wow, I thought I was irascible and obnoxious lately; Dr. A takes the cake. I think we all need to get out more....

I've just received a shipment of "Captain Caveman Brand Extra-Large Girlfriend Sacks." We could slink about in the wee hours, working on our capturing stance and choice of footwear. I'm leaning toward Altama's GI-issue combat boots, as they give very good traction, are fairly quiet, and will protect my feet in case my quarry manages to stomp on them.

DjB</font>

[yunfat]

Originally posted by Venjra ICQ 2126434:

I wouldnt like to see this forum spoiled with childish coments or having gamey tactics used in scenarios. :mad:

You're right, that doesn't happen already :-P

Originally posted by The_Capt:

PC = BMW

Console = Skateboard

Funny how my "skateboard" has more graphics horsepower than your "BMW". And a higher mhz rating than 50% of people who currently play CM.

Originally posted by JMcGuire:

I can give you a couple great reasons they shouldn't do this.

First of all, developer licenses for all those platforms are extremely expensive for a company of BTS's size.

Second, the similarity between a PC and those consoles, even an XBOX, isn't as great as you think. If it's taking them this long to build CMBB, and it's heavily based on existing code, they'd basically NEVER be able to ship a product for even one additional platform. It would be outdated before they could finish it.

Third, at least on the XBOX and PS2 (I don't know about the GameCube) there are enormous royalties to pay to MS or Sony for every copy sold. That's cash directly out of BTS's pocket. If they aren't interested in the traditional publisher/retail channels today, you can bet they don't want to pay Console Tax any time in the near future.

Fourth, while I love CM, frankly its graphics suck by any modern standards. Its complexity and its graphics would probably make it a flop. I think this was the point Andreas was making.

I can probably come up with more reasons if you want...

Addressing your arguments in order:

First, Nintendo and MS and Sony all have significant pools of money available to developers... all they have to do is ask, or express interest. Nintendo has earmarked a billion dollars to encourage small developers to bring forth their games on their system, all you have to do is fill out a loan form. MS and Sony have similar programs.

Second, offload that work to a company that does ports? Admittedly BTS would never part with their code, but everyone else does it... is their code so much less vaulable? Or is CM that great? How about buying a license to a 3d engine that isn't so 1980's?

Third, consoles will gross over 10 billion dollars this year, you make it sound like no one is making money, this isnt the case, and royalties are not as prohibitive as you may think...

Fourth, if you read my post you would notice I mention getting a new graphics engine.

Originally posted by Farslayer:

I'm not a hardcore wargamer, just a gamer, and I preordered CM.

[Soddball]

Yunfat said:

Funny how my "skateboard" has more graphics horsepower than your "BMW". And a higher mhz rating than 50% of people who currently play CM.

Not relevant to this discussion. Mhz is not an adequate way of calculating processing speed - consider other factors, such as data transfer speed on the DVD/hard disk channels, bus speed of CPU, Mhz of RAM.

I am also puzzled about your statement at the beginning about CMBO:

1) saying that BFC would have to make stable code that didn't crash.

2) saying that BFC would have to make an in-game walkthrough to summarise a 150-page manual.

Firstly, I don't have any problems running CM. It doesn't crash. My machine crashes because of Microsoft (*cough*X-Box*cough*).

Secondly, how can you create an in-game walkthrough to demonstrate, amongst other things:

The controls

Navigating around the CM map

Obtaining detailed unit information

Issuing orders

Different terrain types

Direct fire and Area fire

LOS

Button-up

Ammunition levels

Suppression

Hand-to-hand combat

Hull-down

Armour penetration

Armour types

Command Delay

Command Range

Leadership abilities

Morale

Fanatic troops

Experience

Fatigue

Fog of war

Spotting

Air Support

That's up to page 80 out of a 150-page manual.

Ye gods - you'd need another CD! :eek:

You aren't being realistic. The 'big bucks' will go into the pockets of the big companies. "Loans" from the big companies to small software houses sound like a fun way to go.

Finally - console games are overpriced. Who wants to see another £20 stuck onto the price of CMBB, so that it can be converted onto a console format?

[yunfat]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Not relevant to this discussion. Mhz is not an adequate way of calculating processing speed - consider other factors, such as data transfer speed on the DVD/hard disk channels, bus speed of CPU, Mhz of RAM.

It may not be relevant to the discussion, but my statement was there to address the view that consoles were underpowered, which had been mentioned by someone.

Originally posted by Soddball:

I am also puzzled about your statement at the beginning about CMBO:

1) saying that BFC would have to make stable code that didn't crash.

2) saying that BFC would have to make an in-game walkthrough to summarise a 150-page manual.

Firstly, I don't have any problems running CM. It doesn't crash. My machine crashes because of Microsoft (*cough*X-Box*cough*).

Secondly, how can you create an in-game walkthrough to demonstrate, amongst other things:

The controls

Navigating around the CM map

Obtaining detailed unit information

Issuing orders

Different terrain types

Direct fire and Area fire

LOS

Button-up

Ammunition levels

Suppression

Hand-to-hand combat

Hull-down

Armour penetration

Armour types

Command Delay

Command Range

Leadership abilities

Morale

Fanatic troops

Experience

Fatigue

Fog of war

Spotting

Air Support

That's up to page 80 out of a 150-page manual.

Ye gods - you'd need another CD! :eek:

You aren't being realistic. The 'big bucks' will go into the pockets of the big companies. "Loans" from the big companies to small software houses sound like a fun way to go.

Finally - console games are overpriced. Who wants to see another £20 stuck onto the price of CMBB, so that it can be converted onto a console format?[/QB]

The captured crew bug (well documented) creates a fatal crash in about 10% of my tcp/ip games (the only way I play). If you haven't had CM crash, you arent playing enough

With regard to the walkthrough, how about a movie of two experienced CM players in a meeting engagement with a breakdown of what each player is trying to accomplish, and what orders he issued? Sounds pretty easy to me. Just make some audio clips to explain the action... along with some flash style rollover animations and FMV (I dont program so just shoot me when you explain why this wont work). BTW, all the consoles use the DVD format, so your extra cd would be unnecessary, its way more space than BTS needs... plus these consoles will have HD's soon.

Finally, another few dollars to make CM more user friendly will be money well spent... take for example the closeness of the GO button to the navigation arrows, its unacceptable to have a GUI that can ruin a game by an accidental button click while trying to move around the battlefield. Also, the money would go to a new 3d engine... maybe you can wait for 3-5 years for the rewrite, but i would like to see better graphics sooner, even if it means a price hike, or BTS has to buy a decent 3d engine suited to their needs.

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Panzerman:Hum, Doug, don't you have "other" things you should be spending your time doing?

While I'm at work, I have to at least LOOK like I'm participating in the sales process. Playtesting CM battles won't cut it

DjB