Bonxa Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I've recently encountered some odd behavior with hulldown tanks. They have good LOS to a target and are in a hulldown position in relation to it according to the LOS tool. Then when they open fire the rounds just hit the rise just in front of them which they're hiding behind. It seems odd that the tank opens fire when there is an obstacle a few meters in front of the gun. The solutions is simple enough, move the tank furter up so that the barrel get above the rise. Is this somekind of simulation of the tank being turretdown or is it a bug? Has anyone else encountered this. Just curious. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrold Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Hi KarlXII, I have never seen such a thing, but I was wondering if perhaps you are seeing incoming fire instead of outgoing? BDH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonxa Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 No, I'm positive that it's outgoing fire. I had a platoon of JdPzIV:s in a reverse slope position. They were firing both AP and HE during the battle at both armoured and soft targets. There were plentiful of both small and medium craters on that crest after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I too have never seen that before, and you get some points for being the first to ever see something like that! I have no idea why it would do that. Was it one game or many games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Originally posted by KarlXII: I've recently encountered some odd behavior with hulldown tanks. They have good LOS to a target and are in a hulldown position in relation to it according to the LOS tool. Then when they open fire the rounds just hit the rise just in front of them which they're hiding behind. It seems odd that the tank opens fire when there is an obstacle a few meters in front of the gun. The solutions is simple enough, move the tank furter up so that the barrel get above the rise. Is this somekind of simulation of the tank being turretdown or is it a bug? Has anyone else encountered this. Just curious. :confused: I have seen this I do not think it is a bug (in fact I think it is a COOL new ultra realistic feature ) If Steve (of BFC) played the scenario Redwolf posted in the Retreating Monster tanks thread, he probably saw it too. It would appear that this is just another form of "miss" the gun was laid too low (in error) and the round plowed into the ground, in the same way that a target on the horizion can be fired at and the round went "high" and flew off into the nether world of the endless horizion, (same thing, here its just a miss). If your tank that is firing into the ground in front of it, it "should" adjust fire and maybe send one over the top of the target, then maybe on the third or forth round it might hit it. I would say watch for this but don't move the tank, the round that plowed into the ground (short) was just a miss, a few more shots should be adjusted accordingly. IMHO -tom w [ November 30, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egan Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Yup. I've seen this too. I figured at first that it was incoming fire but it weren't. I don't think it's a bug though. Actually, I kinda like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 You shouldn't have to move, it's just a bad miss. It's most painful when it's a large HE shell being shot by a thinly armored vehicle... Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikser Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I saw this while exercising one of those amusing "the Soviets have to rush an entrenched hill" scenarios - but a T-34/85 continued such strange behaviour for ten or so rounds, wasting countless of rounds on the same patch of land barely obscuring the LOS to my Fusilier squad! It's as if the AI thinks it can hit the targets whereas it just can't due to either gun traverse limitations or LOS problems(part of hill obscuring target). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Yepp, seen it too. I agree it looks rather silly. Don't know if it was something that really happend during WWII. But, as has been suggested, just wait and let the tank make some corrections and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I saw it just yesterday. Was confused at first, but realized my 'lil BT-7, in a great hulldown position, was a little TOO hulldown, and was plowing the field about 3 meters away consistently. I am also certain that particualr tank was in the hulldown position by the seek hulldown order. [ November 30, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Wilhammer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonxa Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 I see that it could just be a grave miss but at times it misses gravely round after round as mentioned above. Wouldn't the gunner se through his sights that there's a crest in the way? I think it should be adjusted so that it doesn't occur frequently and certainly not several rounds after eachother. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Ive had MG in "hulldown" position so that it could fire targets it actually couldnt see. (Well in los tool yes, but view level 1 no) This made my opponent very frustrated since his tanks could target my MG but couldnt hit it any way. Rounds hit ground rising some meters in front of my MG, those which went over the rising when far over mg squad as well. I think HE rounds follow visual path...i mean if they visually hit hill they cant go through it and hit target. They will hit the hill or go over it.(in this case missing my MG squad both ways.) I checked position of my MG from viewpoint of enemy tank and yes..even helmet of machine gunner couldnt be seen behind the reverse slope. [ November 30, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: illo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 sry double [ November 30, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: illo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGSF Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 This has happened to me twice, in two different games. My tank has been just on the reverse side of a ridge to it's target. It has LOS (blue line) to the target which is several hundred yards away, and also an area fire line (orange line). The tank's MG tracer splatters into the target area. BUT, it's big gun fires into the ground about 10 yards ahead of itself, repeatedly until the end of the turn. I believe that if a tank has LOS and it's MG is able to put tracer on the target, the big gun should not be digging for turnips a few yards in front of the tank doing the firing. I understand that the terrain is an abstraction of the underlying model. But if I have LOS and targetting lines to the target, my gun should be able to put it's shells in the target area. Especially if the MG fire is able to make it. If not, I expect to see a "sight blocked" indicator. If it's a "miss", like an over-shoot, then it ought not be repeated as it is. If a gunner fires into the ground ahead of himself, he would adjust, not keep firing into the ground round after round. But then it's only for a minute, the the player can move the tank forward....*sigh*....I suppose I can live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vedder Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Same thing happened to me last night in a quick (and i mean quick 20 round) battle. I had my Kv-1 perfectly set up in a hull down position below this hill in the road he had a blue LOS to the target a panzer 3 and had an orage target line. I tell him to fire and that round a see rounds impacting maybe 50 meters in front of him, thinking its the p3's feeble atempt to hit me i think nothing of it. Then i realise that its me who is firing into the ground! This causes me to waste 2 rounds in a very time important game. The only thing i could do is move my tank right into the open to huntthat bastard p3 who is demoralising my troops. I get there as fast as i can blow it apart but the enemies stupid tank hunter team rushes from about 100 meters away IN THE SNOW under heavy fire from my maxim machine gunner and all my troops, gets about 50 meters away falls to teh ground prone but somehow a big black thing flys into the air and BAM! My kv-1 is taken out. 1 second later the tanker hunter team is eliminated. RARGH. I was pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Originally posted by KarlXII: Wouldn't the gunner se through his sights that there's a crest in the way?I would assume so. Furthermore, since the cannon is pointed a little higher than the sight line (to account for the ballistic trajectory), I would expect any fired rounds to clear the obstacle by at least inches. I don't happen to think that what you are seeing is realistic. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porajkl Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 This thing is happening, definitely. I noticed this in at least three QB against AI. In one my T-34 was diging holes with round after round into a crest some 50 meters ahead of it instead of mincing the infantry (some 150 meters ahead) which was its assignment. For entire turn not one round went over that crest. I had no choice to move that tank forward in the next turn and exposed it to panzershreck... I didn't play V1.0 too much so I can't say if this is occuring in V1.01, but it's annoying. A gunner should adjust the gun. That hadn't happened in CMBO and I think it's a bug. Also another thing I observed: if your infantry is on the top of a steep hill and enemy tank is bellow, it won't hit you with its gun. In one QB enemy T-34 was trying to hit my squads up there and all of its shells went over, right into heavens sky. That continued for a few turns! (it was AI's and it didn't change its position). I was quite happy when seeing all those rounds wasted, but it seems unrealistic. It should hit sometimes, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Originally posted by Porajkl: Also another thing I observed: if your infantry is on the top of a steep hill and enemy tank is bellow, it won't hit you with its gun. In one QB enemy T-34 was trying to hit my squads up there and all of its shells went over, right into heavens sky. That continued for a few turns! (it was AI's and it didn't change its position). I was quite happy when seeing all those rounds wasted, but it seems unrealistic. It should hit sometimes, don't you think?This is actually a difficult shot to get in real life. Usually your rounds land very short or go very long. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Tiger Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 I hade this in two following QB, one time as russian (2x IS-2) the second as german (2x StugIIIg). All TC`s were killed or wounded after one minute of shooting right 10-20 meters in front of the own tank. I am feeling to lose more and more the controll over my units since CMBO...and if the AI do it on its own, it looks like crap. If this is the idea to make it more "realistical"..then good night!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frontovik Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 I have seen this happen in real life. Some tanks have roof mounted sights, which means that an inexperienced gunner can really screw the pooch by firing into the berm. I've also seen experienced gunners (having a bad day, I presume) do the same thing, if the gun tube is slighlty elevated as the tank pulls up, then even when looking through the auxillary sights (co-axial) the gunner dosn't realize he hasn't cleared the berm, and when he switches to the primary sight, lowers the gun tube and begins to track his target, the gunner has no idea the tube isn't clear. As far as the game goes this has not happened to me, never had a problem firing from hull down positions, but I do believe hitting the berm can be considered realistic, especially for green or conscript crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by frontovik: Some tanks have roof mounted sights, which means that an inexperienced gunner can really screw the pooch by firing into the berm.Right. But my understanding was that as far as WW II is concerned, it was relatively rare and confined to the late-war heavies. Is there a grog in the house who could provide a list of vehicles with roof-mounted sights? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreasyPig Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Hey fellas, I apologize for digging up this thread so late but I can't visit the board as often as I'd like and the search function brought this up as the latest thread on the subject. Has this "problem" been formally addressed yet? My boys are constantly digging holes round after round. Thanks GreasyPig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danzig Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Ditto, I have seen this problem 1st hand. Thank god it was the AI and not my guys doing it. But the tank the AI was controlling kept sitting there for about 5-6 rounds trying to fire on a little MG dug in at a treeline. After about 5 rounds, it finally stopped, probably being out of HE ammo by then, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 I've also noticed this. It doesn't happen too often, but enough to be an irritation. I am ok with a tank "digging for turnips" as someone said earlier But after 1 shot like that, or at most 2, I would hope any gunner who is not severely retarded would change the elevation of the gun to prevent anymore digging. Watching a tank fire round after round into the earth while trying to hit a target is a wee bit frustrating. Perhaps something to look at in the 1.02 patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak_43 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 I have a couple of PBEM saved games with one of my oppo's T34's blasting away into a rise just in front of it, while having LOS to the target...if Steve thinks it's a problem send me an e-mail and I'll drop the file(s) over.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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