Louie the Toad Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Have a single 57mm ATG. Should I defend from the forest for concealment or from the wall about 50m further up for cover? Curious Toad :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olandt Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 everything else equal, the forest without a doubt. concealment is everthing and the forest will give you 360 cover. The wall is only good from one side and I don't really think they do much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Interesting question... The trees are better to hide in, but run the risk of artillery airbursts knocking you out. The wall will provide better cover from direct fire, but lacks some of the cover for the hiding benefit. It may come down to which position gives you a better field of fire. That's what i would take into consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 the forest will offer better concealment until you open up fire, but treebursts from artillery will kill the gun quickly. Hiding directly behind a stone wall can offer concealment unless an enemy unit gets within 200 or so yards, maybe a little less. He'll die quickly from gun or heavy tank fire unless he KOs the tanks first. I personally like the trees better, but it depends on the field of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Due to the shape of the terrain and of the woods, the field of fire I need to have will be about the same. (poplar) opinion would be the trees (sorry for the pun). Grateful Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamineagle Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 I would opt for the wall. I have had tremendous success placing an AT behind a wall. Tree burst in the woods are murder. I once destroyed 3 Panthers and 2 Hetzers with a single 75mm AT placed behind a wall with excellent LOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 If the choice is between forest and wall, I'd take the forest for the hiding bonus. If the choice is between scattered trees and wall, I'd probably take the wall. Walls are really good against incoming MG and rifle fire. But one thing to consider when placing AT guns in wooded areas, putting them far back into the woods reduces your enemy's shot accuracy as well as your own. Your AT gun has to hit a specific target to do any damage; the tank only has to hit in the area to be able to supress and then kill your unit. Once your unit is spotted, the forest's benefits essentially vanish. And you may actually be at a disadvantage, accuracy-wise. Sometimes, it may be best to just put them *just* inside the forest edge (so you don't lose accuracy), hide them until you see a good target, let them kill that target, and then watch them die. Hopefully they'll take out something more valuable than they were. Occasionally, you'll get more than one enemy AFV before your gun buys the farm. BTW, by far the best "concealment" for guns in CM is distance. You want as many hundreds (actually thousands) of meters between you and your target as physically possible to remain hidden for as long as possible. An HQ with a good concealment bonus commanding the gun helps too (but distance is the real key). Once they're found, they're dead meat. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecumseh Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Hey Toad...I would go with the wall. Walls and guns together rock! Concealment when hiding behind a wall is very good for a gun...do a test and take a look. It is better than hiding close to the edge of woods. And when you choose to unhide, you have more protection than being at the edge of woods, better defence against small arms and arty, and when the gun gets "pinned" it goes back to being very well concealed - sometimes tanks lose site of the gun again. Concealment is obviously better deeper in woods, but as Wolfe says, it is way worse for gun accuracy and usually a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Units hiding behind a wall (within 15m) have a 0% exposure. Basically they are totally invisable. So the wall gives you the best cover. Once unhidden your exposure rises to 30% (about the same as scattered trees), compared to 18% for woods. But as already pointed out, you dont have to worry about those nasty tree bursts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PVLLVS MAXIMVS Posted July 19, 2001 Share Posted July 19, 2001 One thing to watch our for with hiding behind walls tho : As far as I know its very dependent on having the high ground. Its pretty easy to spot even hiding units crouched behind a wall with a lower elevation than youre spotting unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted July 19, 2001 Author Share Posted July 19, 2001 Hmm, I think my situation favors the wall. Waffeling Toad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted July 19, 2001 Share Posted July 19, 2001 I would put the gun behind a wall IF the terrain it rests on is HIGHER than your planned killzone. If it's fairly level, it's kind of iffy... I'd have to see it for myself to decide. The forest provides excellent concealment. Great for those first shot kills. But once artillery and mortars start shelling it, say good bye to your ATG. Even nearby blasts will suppress it. Only the best gun crews will keep firing through the storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted July 19, 2001 Share Posted July 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker: I would put the gun behind a wall IF the terrain it rests on is HIGHER than your planned killzone. If it's fairly level, it's kind of iffy... I'd have to see it for myself to decide. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I had no idea there were so many variables. Has anyone ever tried putting a wall next to some forest tiles and setting the gun behind that? One scenario I played even had a gun in a church, exploiting one of the vagaries of the scenario editor. It survived long enough to use all of its ammunition, even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Saunders Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 I have just had a lot of success with a german 37mm Flak behind a wall. It was on higher open ground behind a wall. I have replayed the scenario several times and the gun was never taken out. It was sitting next to a MG bunker (also behind wall) which was taken out each time, but the gun just kept blasting. Each time it was credited with at least 1 Stuart and several 1/2Trks along with 15-20 infantry. I was impressed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 i USUALLY place my guns in woods, esp tall pines. i find that the increased concealment and cover is a trade off for the air burst. yes air bursts suck for guns, but they are just about as easy to knock out sitting behind a wall with art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujay Posted August 5, 2001 Share Posted August 5, 2001 My experience with AT guns (those not protected by cement pillboxes) is that they're almost useless. They're something like Japanese tree snipers: if they're lucky, they can get a kill. After they're exposed, they're dead meat. Guns have a very high profile. Once their surprise function is over, a kid with a 22 could take them out. But if you're playing a defense game and you've got some small change left, what the hey, buy a couple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted August 5, 2001 Author Share Posted August 5, 2001 Well, after knocking out an enemy halftrack (with one shot) that appeared to be scouting my defenses and taking part in the repelling of an infantry attack, my gun has been spotted. Eight to 12 mortar rounds have landed too close for comfort. While the wall may not protect me from the shells which mostly have fallen behind my position. I am certainly glad I am not in the woods. Ducking Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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