Aircraft - crack shots

[KiwiJoe]

Ive run quite a few tests with aircraft. Ive yet to see a straffing run on a vechile miss the target. The planes have all been regs. For the cost, aircraft seem to be a far better buy than any AT gun. Has any1 started banning them in QB's? Do AA guns make a real difference?

How easy was it to hit lone tank on a straffing run in real life?

[catnip]

I love the new aircraft model. Fast, cheap, and deadly. I play overcast when I don't want to worry about planes.

[akdavis]

Depends. If there was no AA fire and the target was in open ground, I think a competent pilot stood a pretty good chance of landing some rounds on target.

[von Lucke]

Yah, MG's and cannons always seem to hit their target, but they don't always get a kill (or even a penetration). Bombs and rockets, OTOH, seem to vary wildly in their accuracy.

What I find odd, is that strafing runs, aren't. I mean, the AC only ever hits one target with all those MG rounds. Shouldn't they tear up an area before and after the target?

[ October 24, 2002, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]

[Soddball]

I agree. I'd like to see planes use the equivalent of a 'cover arc' attack with a strafing run, perhaps 200m long and 4m wide, so that everything within that corridor of fire would end up suppressed or attacked. Any other thoughts?

[von Lucke]

It would seem to be possible: The Hs-129-B2 has that cluster-bomb attack that covers a wide swatch of ground --- why not something similar with kinetic energy weapons?

[phil stanbridge]

I'm not sure about that. I've just played a scenario where the plane was more of a nuisance than anything else. He would keep me searching for cover and slowing me down. Ok his cannon was pretty accurate but his bomb load was way off. I love the way infantry automatically disembark from HT's when they hear the aircraft now.. Pretty cool.

[Madmatt]

From reading dozens of first person pilot accounts, straffing an area is normally only used on soft targets like a road column or assembly area for troops. More often than not, its just a waste of precious ammo and those type of targeting conditions are rare in CM.

Since most of the time it is armored vehicles that are engaged it makes sense that a plane picks a point target and engages it with each pass.

Also remember, this aint Peal Harbor the movie here with planes having unlimited MG and Cannon ammo. Real life aircraft ammo is low in the extreme and planes aren't so gungho to go "winchester" when they still need to fly back home.

Most of the CAS gun camera film you will see will show the same, a plane will begin its attack run with a sole ground unit as its target, engage at close range, usually from behind at a steep angle to score hits on the weak and vulnerable rear engine deck and then pull out and bank away to prevent ground fire from damaging it. Get in quick and get out quick and minimize your exposer to enemy fire. Doing a nice lazy shallow gun run is just going to get your butt blown outa the air.

Madmatt

[ October 24, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]

[Schoerner]

Excellent, Matt.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Ive run quite a few tests with aircraft. Ive yet to see a straffing run on a vechile miss the target. The planes have all been regs. For the cost, aircraft seem to be a far better buy than any AT gun. Has any1 started banning them in QB's? Do AA guns make a real difference?

How easy was it to hit lone tank on a straffing run in real life?

I will just about only play overcast QB's now. AA guns wont do a thing unless you buy a bunch of them. So, either you buy three or four good AA guns for about 150 points and maybe scare off a plane (not shoot one down), or they did not buy one and you wasted the points.

In a recent QB that was only 1500 points, I lost a halftrack, StuG, and Marder all to one plane. It hit them every time and knocked them out with one run. Very annoying, especially on a small battle like that.

BTS fix or do somefink!

Chad

[Baron von Beergut]

In a pbem I am in, my plane keeps attacking the german armor with his rockets - sometimes hits, mostly misses, but the HE rockets seem worthless against his Panther & StuGIIIF. I wish that pilot had the sense to use his rockets against the massed infantry nearby in the open!

[Panzer76]

I was looking forward to using the planes more, but then I saw that I usually cant aford them (in a typical 1500 pts battle) without sacrifising my arty, and my arty is WAY better than any aircraft, so ...

[mglsharkson]

anybody seen that doc film where P-51 pilots I believe know out Tiger tanks bouncing 50 caliber underneath the tanks? Wierd but true

Marc

[mglsharkson]

oops - knock out I mean

Marc

[Mud]

A somewhat related question that's been disturbing me:

How is the 75mm AT cannon on a certain Heinkel aimed? Surely it's not automatic (!), so AT + single-shot (by the time you reload, you've moved quite a distance) + flying through the air at decent speed would seem to suggest that tagging an AFV should be pretty difficult...

[Scheer]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

I will just about only play overcast QB's now. AA guns wont do a thing unless you buy a bunch of them. So, either you buy three or four good AA guns for about 150 points and maybe scare off a plane (not shoot one down), or they did not buy one and you wasted the points.

Chad[/QB]

I dont know. I´ve bought two german quad 20mm flak and one killed a russian plane on turn four. Place them side by side so that they got the same LOS. Seems to work.

[demoss]

AA guns wont do a thing unless you buy a bunch of them. So, either you buy three or four good AA guns for about 150 points and maybe scare off a plane (not shoot one down), or they did not buy one and you wasted the points.

I wish! In [CENSORED], I've had a single Russkie 25 mm AA gun take out a Ju-87 B that couldn't hit the broadside of a barn (or a KV). And I was doing OK before taking that point hit - not sure exactly how much that cost me, but I think it was a couple hundred points. Fortunately I got the KV-2 later with a few PaK 38 shots to the side hull and turret.

Sure, it took a few turns for that AA gun to get the plane, but the Stuka didn't do diddly in between except put a nice big hole in the road and take some ineffective shots at infantry running around. Oh, and it convinced a platoon of my panzergrenadiers to jump out of their 'tracks. Good thing they were already roughly were I needed them. Darn thing has been nothing but a liability. Fortunately, I think I've accounted for the AA, so my second Stuka may survive (though it, too, just put a big hole in another road, failing to hit the broadside of another KV, this one a KV-1 M40 which is probably going to have to be dealt with by the infantry).

BTW, has anybody noticed that the attack profile for dive bombers just doesn't look right? The shadow speeds along pretty much just like the CMBO strafing fighter-bombers did.

[Sigurd]

Maybe I'm a bit off-topic, but can planes hit other's side planes ? That is, have they got an AA capacity ?

In RL, it would be plausible for a ME-109 to shoot down those Yak. But perhaps it's out of the scale of CM engagements.

[TSword]

Found the following at http://www.britwar.co.uk/mod.php?mod=fileman&menu=8&PHPSESSID=54b7c6d235c84a0c979ca2e8c1eeef4e:

"WO 291/2357 Rocket Typhoons.

This report is dated 12 June 1945. The expected probability of hits on different targets using RPs is

given as:

Target Dimensions % hits

Small gun position 5' diameter 0.2

Panther tank 22'6" × 10'9" × 9'10" 0.5

Large gun position 10' diameter 0.8

Army hut 60' × 30' × 20' 2.8

Large building 120' × 54' × 50' 10.0

"Among the hundreds of abandoned and knocked out tanks that have been examined, no instance has

been recorded of a tank that has been hit by R.P. and escaped major damage."

RP are very effective on guns (20mm guns are blown to pieces), tanks, barns and huts. Brick houses

have a large hole knocked in them and "considerable havoc wrought inside". Anti-personnel effects are

limited, as the rocket tends to bury itself, and on concrete structures and thick masonry such as

churches the damage inflicted is superficial.

The morale effects of rocket attack appear considerable. Enemy PWs report that all personnel except

flak gunners hide from aircraft from 1 to 10 minutes after the completion of an attack, expecting the

attackers to return for a second strafing pass.

"It appears quite definite that it is the nature of the attack that upsets the Germans and not the physical

damage which it causes."

RP Typhoons are also reported to have a considerable heartening effect on friendly troops."

In IL-2 it is very difficult to strafe men, and as soon as AA is around it becomes almost impossible. (Btw. best method to limit AA effectivness and maximize hit prob for an attacking AC is a 60° dive).

Greets

Daniel

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah bombs and rockets seem to miss a fair amount. But cannons; 20mm, 23mm, 30mm, 37mm ALWAYS hit the tank they are fired at. Thus your only chance is to have armour thick enough to deflect the shot or get lucky with a "penetration no serious damage". Combine this with the new low cost of JABOs and you have an awesome tank killing unit... maybe too awesome ???

[Stormin Norman]

I had a Quad .50 kill a plane. Of course the plane(s) had already killed 10-12 tanks.

The quad went on to murdelize a inf plt.

[Bruceov]

Two immoblized tigers by gunfire from one plane

[illo]

Originally posted by mglsharkson:

anybody seen that doc film where P-51 pilots I believe know out Tiger tanks bouncing 50 caliber underneath the tanks? Wierd but true

Marc

Well not true, just another tale. In most favorable conditions WW2 era 0.50 would penetrate about 20mm of armor in 90 degree hit angle. Bottom armor of most tanks is quite thick(+-30mm) to protect crew from AT-mines so its usually thicker than top armor. Aside you get deformed and tumbling rounds if they hit road.

After action research (US) in west battle locations revevaled allied airmen were overclaiming at least 10x. Actually only tanks destroyed from air had direct bomb and rocket hits on them. Near misses or strafing didn't kill them. In british test firing rockets were found to have 6% hit change in non combat conditions. However supressing effect of airattacks was in any case very high.

[Gary T]

Well, I've had mixed fortunes when under attack from aircraft. I have managed to shoot two down - one Il-2 with a Wirbelwind and a Hs-129 with a M17 ( I think thats what the HT is called).

However in the scenario where I shot down the Hs-129 it and it's buddy knocked out 12 of my T34's/Su-122. It was uncanny how my moving T34's were knocked out especially as they were in a village and not in the open steppe. In another scenario I witnessed the most effective air attack to date - I had five stationary trucks loaded with men. A Stuka dropped one bomb (a pretty big one judging by the crater) and it between 20 and 40 metres from the trucksAll five trucks burst into flames - 3 squads and platoon HQ elminated entirely and 1/2 of another squad. I had to laugh...

[Halberdier]

Gary T

...However in the scenario where I shot down the Hs-129 it and it's buddy knocked out 12 of my T34's/Su-122. It was uncanny how my moving T34's were knocked out especially as they were in a village and not in the open steppe. ...

Good grief! I've been playing Huge QB's with ~3 armed aircraft (Soviet and German) and they haven't done squat against tanks (but they were effective vs open topped vehicles). I was about to post about them being under-effective, but I guess that I've just been unlucky.

cheers,

-gabe-