T-34 - What's your impression on this?

[Mattias]

*Tutorial and Yelnia Stare spoilers*

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Playing the tutorial I confidently rolled forward my T-34's only to have, first one, then two shot up and taken out of action after some three hits each. I played the scenario through thinking it could have been a 50mm Pak, perhaps a 75mm or some kind of hollow charge something.

Well, as we all know, it was a 37mm Pak. Well, I thought, it did happen after all, then I set out to play the same scenario again.

And again I lost both T-34's to the Pak, but this time I looked a bit closer and got the impression that the penetrating hits where against the turret, all of them if I recall correctly.

Perhaps I was unlucky but when I played it the third time I made a point of not going hull down with the tanks, and they lived.

What really brought this home was when I played "Yelnia Stare". Taking my impression from the tutorial I decided to engage the T-34's when they were hull down, with the Pak 36's that is. Waiting for a turn or two until a few of the tanks were out of LOS (lessen return fire) I began firing away with my Pak's. And there has to be a bit of the old Pz IV situation here (much weaker turret that is) because a few turns later I was two Pak's down but one of them had put 5 (five) T-34's out of action, all with shots from the front and, as much as I could influence it, to the turret (range 404-212 meters).

The outcome was greatly influenced by the fact that the Pak was placed in a position that was hard to return fire to but the big surprise for me was that it was actually possible to, on a regular basis, put T-34's out of action with Pak 36's, not to mention from the frontal arc (actually I could not do it from the side).

Well, it would not be the first time a myth was punctured (the Tigers vs. Hellcats back in the beta demo days springs to mind) but what I am curious about is, what is this turret weakness that allows the T-34 to be defeated like this? I can think of a few things myself but non of them seems to really have come forth in the day when the Germans were struggling to fight these tanks, or was it just that they were really though most of the time?

It was not like I got an amazing string of "weak spot" hits but rather all kinds of messages came up and one after the other the T-34's fell out (all abandoned).

Oh, and of course I loved every bit of the demo, high points so far being the much more dynamic feeling from the armour damage model and the improved MG's

M.

[ September 02, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[pathfinder]

There is a discussion in another thread (about the AT guns, 37MM "doorknocker" in particular) and their effects.

The 37 mm could take them out but takes a whole buncha shots. My guess is that the green crews bailed after a couple of penetrations. Spalling does wonders to tank crew morale

[Mattias]

Originally posted by pathfinder:

There is a discussion in another thread (about the AT guns, 37MM "doorknocker" in particular) and their effects.

The 37 mm could take them out but takes a whole buncha shots. My guess is that the green crews bailed after a couple of penetrations. Spalling does wonders to tank crew morale

Ok, things are moving too fast to follow right now

Still, it did not take that many rounds and the impression one gets from battle reports is that it just "didn't" happen with a Door knocker and a T-34. Then again, the fact that you stand to loose your life in every engagement most probably influences your interpretation of what "can" be done...

But I'm always keen on new impressions

M.

[Gryphon]

What people seem to forget that this is the M40, M41 and up are harder/impossible to destroy with the PaK 36

Regards,

Gryphon

I don't know anything about soviet production figures but i would say the M40 is not one that was used very widely.

EDIT: I canet tyupe doh11!!

[ September 02, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Gryphon ]

[Gryphon]

Follow up: The one thing that does strike me as odd is the amount of penetration on the PaK 36

I thought it was only around 30-40mm at 100m

EDIT: And the fact that the HE has a higher mv than the AP round

Any PaK 36 experts would like to clarify?

[ September 02, 2002, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Gryphon ]

[skelley]

Every time I played it the 37mm just bounced off except 1 shot KOed the main gun.

[Gryphon]

bump

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

What people seem to forget that this is the M40, M41 and up are harder/impossible to destroy with the PaK 36

Regards,

Gryphon

I don't know anything about soviet production figures but i would say the M40 is not one that was used very widely.

EDIT: I canet tyupe doh11!!

Historically the T34 (and the Tiger tank for that matter) were a whole lot more terrifying than they are in CM. The T34's that wrecked havoc in the germans hearts can now be knocked out by the smallest AT gun in the german arsenal, and with a frontal shot too!

BTS fix or do somefink!

Chad

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

EDIT: And the fact that the HE has a higher mv than the AP round

Any PaK 36 experts would like to clarify?

There are several guns that have an HE MV that is higher than the AP. I don't have the exact MV for the Pak 36, but I wouldn't be surprised if the HE was indeed faster than the AP. Most HE rounds are lighter than the AP rounds (1.33lbs for HE vs 1.50 lbs for AP on the Pak 36), so you would have to use a reduced charge to make it go slower. The designer of the gun's ammunition must make a concious effort to make the HE go slower (which should improve accuracy as an infantry target is a horizontal one rather than a vertical target like a tank). If you use the same amount of propellant in both rounds it stands to reason that the HE would go faster out of the barrel, but it probably slows down in flight more dramatically because of its lighter weight and possibly the ballistic shape of the shell. I think MV is something you probably don't need to be too worried about. That data would be simple enough for someone like Rexford to obtain - and apparently he assisted BTS a great deal with CMBB. Ballistics is also an extremely complicated subject.

[Gryphon]

Okay thanks for the explanation i didn't knew that was possible

But what about the AP charachteristics of the PaK 36.

Every source i found with figures about the AP states it could only penetrate 30-40mm with a pzgr. As far as i could see only the pzgr. 40 can penetrate 64mm at 100m

The sources didn't state if it was at 0 degrees, 30 or 60, neither from vertical or horizontal. Could that be it?

[Lindan]

note that the info states:

penetration vs. TYPICAL enemy. values change according to date and other factors.

[WWB]

Most off the cuff figures for ATG penetraton are 30 degree figures, which is still 51mm at point blank for the Pak36.

WWB

[WWB]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gryphon:

What people seem to forget that this is the M40, M41 and up are harder/impossible to destroy with the PaK 36

Regards,

Gryphon

I don't know anything about soviet production figures but i would say the M40 is not one that was used very widely.

EDIT: I canet tyupe doh11!!

Historically the T34 (and the Tiger tank for that matter) were a whole lot more terrifying than they are in CM. The T34's that wrecked havoc in the germans hearts can now be knocked out by the smallest AT gun in the german arsenal, and with a frontal shot too!

BTS fix or do somefink!

Chad</font>

[OGSF]

Originally posted by Gryphon:

What people seem to forget that this is the M40, M41 and up are harder/impossible to destroy with the PaK 36

Regards,

Gryphon

I don't know anything about soviet production figures but i would say the M40 is not one that was used very widely.

EDIT: I canet tyupe doh11!!

Between 1940 and 1945, some 40,000 T-34 tanks of all models were produced... The first prototypes were produced in early 1940, and after some modifications the first production models rolled out of the Kirov Tank Plant in June 1940. By the time the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, over 1200 had been built.

Some specifications for the T-34/76:

Armour (hull): 20mm (.78in)

Armour (turret): 52mm (2.04in)

- "Tanks of World War II", Steve Crawford, MBI Publishing, 2000.

My Ostfront library is still pretty thin, but I notice that the armour in the game for the T-34 is 45mm all over, except 20mm on top of the hull.

I suspect the tank book I have quoted from might be a bit "mickey-mouse"?

[YankeeDog]

[MINOR SPOILERS CONTAINED - REVEALS SOME INFO ABOUT ENEMY FORCE DISPOSITION IN DEMO SCENARIOS]

I think the jury is still very much out on this. Of the two demo scenarios I have played (I have not played Citadel Schwerpunkt yet as I am saving it for double-blind PBEM), I have seen a several T-34s KOed by the 37mm.

However, this has only happened at very close range (under 200m), and the penetrations have all been to the turret. It has also usually taken several penetrations to KO the tank, which seems to happen usually due to crew casualty or break.

I don't think of this as a good basis to evaluate the T-34 vs. 37mm issue - sub-200m ranges is really not how you want to be engaging small ATGs with a tank, and while I don't have the expertise of a Rexford in these matters, it doesn't really surprise me that the Pak 36 could penetrate an early war T-34 at these ranges in the turret.

When the full version comes out, if I start losing T34s to 37mms at 500m + ranges, then I will complain.

Remember the US 37mm from CMBO? It's basically the same gun as the Pak 36 (the US mostly copied the German design). Think about all of the PzIVs you've lost to the 37mm at close range in CMBO. . .

Cheers,

YD

[ September 02, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[Little_Black_Devil]

I have run into simillar issues.

While some of my T-34's bailed, because they were both green, and under intense fire (anti-tank, and mortar primarily) - some of them were outright killed by turret penetrations, or bailed (intact) on account of a turret penetration. Retreating, and bailing from intense fire (at this stage of the war) is historically accurate - so I don't have any quams about that.

I have also noticed, that the AI opened up with the Pak36's, while I was still on my (Russian) side of the map(400-500m), not at close range, or from the flanks.

I also noticed, that playing as the Germans, you were likely to get "favourable" shots against the T-34 ONLY if it faced you from the front or rear - which I found odd - perhaps it was merely coincidence, or something was happening which I did not see or know about.

I also found that the best place to engage the enemy was at his end of the map - about 400-500m. If the T-34's get to close, they can see the gun with greater ease - and therefore direct more accurate fire upon it, where as at 400-500m they have trouble initially spotting it, and still more trouble landing accurate shots on it. They also appear to be less generous with their coaxial machine guns at this range.

I do have to admit however, that I was surprised that the Pak36 is scoring as many turret penetrations - from the front - as it has been. I thought the door knocker was a wimply little thing.

Looking at the T-34's information chart from within the game, I can see the following stats listed for its armour penetration;

Angle 100m 500m 1000m 2000m

AP

0° .......62.....51.....40......25

30° .....51.....42.....34......22

60° .....32.....27.....22......14

HE

0° .......41.....34.....26......16

30° .....34.....29.....23......15

60° .....22.....18.....15......9

Now - what surprises me here, is that there is a penetrative number given for HE...?

Perhaps I'm reading the chart wrong, or perhaps HE was used in the anti-armour role much more frequently than I'am aware of - which I suppose is possible...

In any event, I'm also surprised to see that there is no Pzgr40 (APCR) for the Pak36 (to say nothing of my beloved Stielgranate-41). Sure German APCR rounds were "rare", particularly as the war went on, but not I would imagine - during the summer of 1941......were they?

Back to penetration,

When I refer to the penetration table in the "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two" by Chamberlain and Doyle (P.245) - I'am told that the penetration capability of the Pak36 is;

(at 30°)

100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m

34......29......22......19........0

which ROUGHLY equates at 0° to;

100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m

43......36......28.......21.......0

These are the types of numbers which I THOUGHT I was working with, which seemed to coincide with my impression of the little "door knocker"; which seemed to fit quite well. You likely would not be getting many turret penetrations through these stats.

However - the numbers which the game appears to be using - DO coincide, with both Rexfords book "World War Two Ballistics: Armour and Gunnery" AND Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two". I'm more inclined to believe Rexford and Mr.Hogg with regards to the correct penetraion values, than Chamberlain and Doyle.

I guess I should pay more attention, to these details. I had no idea that the Pak36 was, indeed, only using AP - such a little but kicker. I'am curious though, with stats like these - how did this gun get its reputation as the "door knocker", when as we can clearly see - its still quite effective?

My guess is - that we have to remember that we are looking at the model 1940 T-34, not its uparmoured successors, such as the Model 41, 42 or 44 for instance. The Model 1940 T-34, is not quite so daunting as its successors proved to be. Its armour was not as thick - particularly in the turret, which would explain WHY we are getting so many penetrations against this early model of the T-34.

All that having been said, I would still like to see APCR rounds - and Stielgranate-41 (stick bomb) rounds for that matter, provided for this gun. Admitadly, a demo is hardly a means to determine as to whether or not those munitions will actually be seen in the full version, but I'd like to re-afirm my desire to see these rounds just the same.

To me - the mystery of the Pak36 vs the T-34 Model 40 seems to have been solved. I was surprised, and I guess I really should not have been.

But thats me.

Anyhow - sorry for boring you guys to death.

[gredeker]

To add some more fuel to the fire...

SPOILERS.

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Having played each of the scenarios a few times, it seems that the effectiveness of the 37mm Pak is dependent on two things - range, and enemy tank morale. I have yet to see the Pak actually knock out a T-34, but thanks to the new penetration models I'm seeing all sort of neat messages regarding non-damaging penetrations, partial penetrations, etc.

Also, when a T-34 M40 buttons up, it is instantly out of C&C with its platoon leader (no radios). When the crew is green, they seem to act correctly for a green unit out of C&C under fire - that is, they panic, abandon their tank, and run for the rear.

Contrast this with the Citadel scenario, where my German tanks were being hit many times by ATRs and 45mm AT guns, but all at long range and all in C&C (thanks to radios). I only had one tank crew abandon a still-functioning tank, but only after the TC was killed, the tank was immobilized, and the KV-IS was still shooting at it.

[Diceman]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

[MINOR SPOILERS CONTAINED - REVEALS SOME INFO ABOUT ENEMY FORCE DISPOSITION IN DEMO SCENARIOS]

I think the jury is still very much out on this. Of the two demo scenarios I have played (I have not played Citadel Schwerpunkt yet as I am saving it for double-blind PBEM), I have seen a several T-34s KOed by the 37mm.

However, this has only happened at very close range (under 200m), and the penetrations have all been to the turret. It has also usually taken several penetrations to KO the tank, which seems to happen usually due to crew casualty or break.

It's also worth noting that the 37mm PAKs in Yelnia Stare have a fair number of tungsten rounds, which further improves their chances.

I don't think of this as a good basis to evaluate the T-34 vs. 37mm issue - sub-200m ranges is really not how you want to be engaging small ATGs with a tank, and while I don't have the expertise of a Rexford in these matters, it doesn't really surprise me that the Pak 36 could penetrate an early war T-34 at these ranges in the turret, especially if Tungsten ammo is involved.

When the full version comes out, if I start losing T34s to 37mms at 500m + ranges, then I will complain.

Remember the US 37mm from CMBO? It's basically the same gun as the Pak 36 (the US mostly copied the German design). Think about all of the PzIVs you've lost to the 37mm at close range in CMBO. . .

Cheers,

YD

I don't see any tungsten listed, but at 500 meters the sweet spot for a turret penetration should be a very narrow portion of the turret front. Having said that, the turret front of the 1940 model looks poorly designed with a shot trap from hell. Has anyone playing as the Russians had a weak spot, or shot trap penetration?

Also, just because it's physically possible to get a penetration doesn't mean that the troops using the gun had confidence in it. Everything I've seen so far is consistent with histories I've read on the 3.7cm PaK35/36 L/45.

[Mattias]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I don't think of this as a good basis to evaluate the T-34 vs. 37mm issue - sub-200m ranges is really not how you want to be engaging small ATGs with a tank, and while I don't have the expertise of a Rexford in these matters, it doesn't really surprise me that the Pak 36 could penetrate an early war T-34 at these ranges in the turret, especially if Tungsten ammo is involved.

When the full version comes out, if I start losing T34s to 37mms at 500m + ranges, then I will complain.

Just for reference:

The 5 T-34's put out of action by one Pak 36 in the opening post where at ranges between 212-404 meters and there are no tungsten rounds available in my version of the demo. Which means you will, with a bit of bad/good luck see losses at at least 404 meters.

It could well be the effect of spalling combined with moral failure but whatever the reason it was abandoned because of the Pak fire.

M.

[Cameroon]

[Possible spoilers!]

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I agree with YankeeDog entirely here. I didn't have a prayer to do anything to those T-34s from >200 meters. Even under 200 meters it was a gamble and lost both my 37mm for two T-34s.

In a related note: It seems that the to-hit and kill chance info has been greatly improved when you target an AFV. I noticed immediately that changes in relative position by the AFV could produce great (displayed) changes to the guns' chance to kill. Sweet Oh, and hull down really seems to drastically reduce to-hit chances (by as much as 30% (absolute) in some cases at least).

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Diceman:

[snip] I don't see any tungsten listed, [snip]

My bad. My brain's so addled from playing this Demo every waking minute yesterday that I'm misremembering things. You are correct, there is no Tungsten ammo for the PaK 36s in Yelnia. I should have known this, as I don't think the Germans had *any* Tungsten in August 1941.

[Ex Bellator]

[Yelnia Spoiler]

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I am also very interested in this topic after seeing a single 'Doorknocker' take out 3 T-34s frontally in Yelnia, while his partner claimed a 4th.

2 of the T34s were abandoned after multiple penetration reports, and 2 were straight KO's. All were front turret penetrations @ ranges 200-300m.

I'm not groggy enough to know if this was a reasonable enough result, but I am suprised that an AT gun renowned for it's ineffectiveness can so easily deal with the best tank in the war at that time.

[Silencer]

playing the demo. Surprised to see that the T34 got easily KO by pak 37, I thought It would have been tungsten.

Playing on the german side, no tungsten..

hmm, maybe a shot trap on the turret front? and what about the armour quality of the early T34?

As far as tungsten is concerned,

During the Battle of France alone 75.000 tungsten rounds were produced. (most of them went to the tanks, none to paks).

21.000 were already issued to the troops on 10 june'40. Usage was well documented during Guderain's crossing of the Aisne.

So, maybe this is the same situation in Russia in the beginning of the war. All tungsten going to offensive units, almost none to defensive (paks).

thoughts?

S.

[Fishu]

I wonder what rounds those are in question.

For PzGr 40, it is too weak at close and too good at distance. (22mm@30 at 2000 meters?!)

Interestingly HE stats looks nearly identical for 37mm AP round.

The AP stats looks like 50mm rather than 37mm.

50L42 KwK 38 to be exact.

100 - 53

500 - 43

1000 - 32

2000 - 22

Sounds familiar don't you think?

50L42 is almost identical to 37mm AP represented in demo.

I suppose the devs have mixed up penetration values when making up the demo.

Mystery solved.. our über germans have somehow figured out how to fit 50mm rounds into 37mm gun

[TSword]

Got several weak penetrations by 37 mm at yelna at around 300-400 m out to the turret front, nobody got hurt and both 37 mm were killed in same round. Lost not a single tank.

T-34 was NOT impervious to the Doorknocker especially at close range. I consider 300-400 m close range.

Greets

Daniel