T-34 - What's your impression on this?

[Battlefront.com]

*sigh* here we go again with people not understanding what published figures mean and how CM really works. I don't even want to remember how much time we spent trying to explain this for CMBO, but I guess to some degree it will have to be done again

First, as many people have noted the initial reaction to "how is this possible" is just that... a reaction. There are several factors that were initially not taken into account, such as the close range, the flaws with this particular type of T-34, the increase in a turret hit if hull down, the relative weakness of side armor, and that luck is very important. One thing not mentioned is that the German gunners are Vets. That means a lot.

Another factor not mentioned is that the guns tend not to survive the encounter, even if they do toast a couple of T-34s. When the average German Infantry Division only had a handful of AT guns to draw from, this kind of tradeoff was totally unacceptable and would have disasterous consequences in subsequent battles.

Now back to the technical discussion. This is from Charles:

We don't use tabular data of course because of all their inherent problems, but just as a quick reality-check comparison our PaK 36 has the following AP penetration stats:

100m, 0 degrees: 62mm

100m, 30 degrees: 51mm

Hogg's _German Artillery of World War Two_ gives the following penetration stats:

100m, 0 degrees: 65mm

100m, 30 degrees: 50mm

How much closer should we be?

And as for the shell not losing enough punch over distance, this is nonsense. We have the 2000m penetration figure (at 0 degrees) pegged at a mere 25mm. That's a 60% reduction from 100m to 2000m.

My guess is that some posters are checking our data against the table in the back of Chamberlain/Doyle/Jentz' Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two. While that is an excellent book, that penetration table has quite a number of oddities and likely errors. It's a prime example of why we don't use tabular data in CM.

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The conclusion here is that CMBB's data is correct. If it looks wrong to you, question your understanding of ballistics and how CMBB works first before claiming to know if it is working correctly or not.

Steve

[Jarmo]

What I'd be interested of, would be how does "Round" translate into armour angles.

Seeing the penetration charts, and the armor thickness of T-34,

I find it easy to believe there could be penetrations.

But slightly less easy to believe there would be quite as much as in CM. Seems about half of the turret hits penetrate at 100m...

Studying the turret shape against hits from directly ahead:

The sides, forming some 1/3rds of the are visible from the front, are of very steep angle and wouldn't be penetrated. The top and bottom of the turret are likewise of steep angle.

The gun mantlet covers about half of the remaining area.

Was the mantlet in addition to "normal" armor?

Or was it perhaps weaker?

Depending on the thickness of the mantlet area, I'd estimate the possibility of turret penetration somewhere between 15-40% at the distance of 100m. There'd probably be some chance even at 500m.

Assuming 20%,

I can easily see the despair of german AT gunners. Say.. shoot 15 times, hit 12 times, 8 hits the hull with no damage, one of the turret hits manages to penetrate, but even that doesn't do serious damage...

Of course, the random probability assumes the gunners are not aiming at vulnerable areas. If they are, it's a whole new ballgame.

And finally, should one expect the 50mm L60 gun to be similarly effective against T-34/85's?

[zukkov]

as for me, i'm certainly willing to trust the game's results table. it is a bit disheartening to lose a t34 to a 37mm gun though. but losses are what the soviets are good at. lol...

since i mentioned things that are disheartening. imagine the poor german soldier fighting in russia in 1941. countless days of marching forward, the scenery never changing. knowing that hundreds of thousands of soviets have already been killed or captured, and still they won't quit. the fatigue, the homesickness, the desire for the war to end, but each day takes him farther from home. then winter sets in. despite the cold, he looks forward to maybe having some respite from the fighting. but no, the russians counter-attack. now he loses all hope for a quick end to the war. i will never see home again, he thinks....

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by zukkov:

[QB]as for me, i'm certainly willing to trust the game's results table.

Oh, me too! And the game's results. I am very happy, though, that the BFC folks are so willing to explain how it all works. Along with not getting shot at, catching dysentary, etc., I find "understanding what's happening" one of the more enjoyable differences between war and a wargame.

[Panzer76]

According to this, the 37 mm acounted for 10 % of the T-34 losses before Sept -42.

The biggest killer wa the 50 mm L60 with over 50 % of the kills.

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_3.html