Men are tired too easily?

[Quenaelin]

I just bought this game yesterday, after considering very long time. Becouse I allready have CMB0 and CMBB seem to be quite similar, but still when there are those new features and better graphics why not to buy it.

I was playing this mission Näätäoja and I found that troops are tiring way too easily when advancing in pine forest. And this was very weird my machine guns were always in the front line of troops, they were recuperating faster and also running faster in the pine forest, though they were tiring faster, is that realistic, I think not. Machine guns should be recuperating in same level as all other men or little bit slower?

I think troop tiring was more realistic in CMB0 than in CMBB. Troops don't have full gear on when battling in the forest, they just have their necessary battle gear, like gun and battle belt, where you have more ammunition and couple of grenades or one blasting charge for bunkers and tanks. Heavily armed troops are always left behind when advancing. I don't like this new tiring "feature" in this game.

[CavalryMan]

This may be teaching you to suck eggs, but did the troops have the same fitness, experiance and leadership all of which I believe have an impact on recovery.

[Jussi Köhler]

Which movement command did you use in the forest?

Normal Move and Move to Contact dont tire troops at all, Advance tires them quite a bit, Sneak and Assault tire them heavily.

I like to use Move to Contact when I am just moving the troops. When contact has been made I use Advance. For the last fem tens of meters I use the assauls command. At the moment Sneak is a big no-no for me. The troops tire VERY quickly using this...

Jussi

[klosiu]

Even standard battle equipment weight about 15-20kg. Try to run with that in pine forest.

[Quenaelin]

Machine guns had same leader as other men. All machine guns were in the front line of troops when everybody else were exhausted? Machine guns seem to be recuperating faster and moving faster in the pine forest? I think this game is becoming too complicated to enjoy anymore, I don't like strategy games in first place but Combat Mission seem to be very promising.

I just like to ask, how you can move your troops in this game without getting exhausted when moving in pine forest, I know I can move in pine forest couple of hundred meters with battle gear on without getting too exhausted, and even with relatively fast speed, like every other Finn in this forum who has been in army. Maybe I could understand this exhaustion if forest was very deep spruce forest, it could slow me down even more, but I still don't lay down exhausted as in this game. It seems like all men are packed with full gear in this game otherwise I cannot accept this level of tiredness.

I think in CMBB moving is penalized too harshly. And sometimes troops are just laying under fire and don't run for cover like in CMB0. Suppressive fire is really suppressive in this game, too suppressive. I would like to make somekind of compromise between older game and this new game, and maybe allow troops move little bit more in forest and under fire even when they get killed. In Finnish army there is this command "don't lay under fire" "Ei saa jäädä tuleen makaamaan" why not implement it to this game too?

[ November 12, 2002, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Abbott]

I just like to ask, how you can move your troops in this game without getting exhausted when moving in pine forest,

Use the Move or Move to Contact order to not tire your troops. Advance for crossing open ground in a hurry when concerned about contacting the enemy. Assault when wanting troops to close assault.

After using the Advance or Assault command you may have to rest your troops for a few turns.

It makes sense and is easy to keep your troops in good order once you have a little practice. You may also want to increase game turns a bit in Quick Battles.

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I would like to make somekind of compromise between older game and this new game, and maybe allow troops move little bit more in forest and under fire even when they get killed. In Finnish army there is this command "don't lay under fire" "Ei saa jäädä tuleen makaamaan" why not implement it to this game too?

I think the real life implementation of that command would be "f*ck you! You go and get shot!"

Gyrene

[Quenaelin]

This is command "Don't lay under fire" already is implemented in real life and I beleave it was succesfully used in battle too. If you are just laying in open field a long time under fire you get mopped up very easily, more easily if you were running to cover and maybe half of your squad maybe saved.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Gyrene:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I would like to make somekind of compromise between older game and this new game, and maybe allow troops move little bit more in forest and under fire even when they get killed. In Finnish army there is this command "don't lay under fire" "Ei saa jäädä tuleen makaamaan" why not implement it to this game too?

I think the real life implementation of that command would be "f*ck you! You go and get shot!"

</font>

[Swift]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I just like to ask, how you can move your troops in this game without getting exhausted when moving in pine forest, I know I can move in pine forest couple of hundred meters with battle gear on without getting too exhausted, and even with relatively fast speed, like every other Finn in this forum who has been in army. Maybe I could understand this exhaustion if forest was very deep spruce forest, it could slow me down even more, but I still don't lay down exhausted as in this game. It seems like all men are packed with full gear in this game otherwise I cannot accept this level of tiredness.

Have you moved through a pine forest in full battle gear AND also knowing that you could get shot any second. I don't think that there are many people on this forum that have the (combat) experience to compare him or her self against CM. And why shouldn’t they be packed with full gear?

When I play CMBB I use move command to move troops when I think it is safe and advance when I think it's not. The move command doesn’t exhaust the units (except in snow I think) but advance does (due to bounding movements I assume) Read what Bullethead says here.

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I think in CMBB moving is penalized too harshly. And sometimes troops are just laying under fire and don't run for cover like in CMB0. Suppressive fire is really suppressive in this game, too suppressive.

Yes, that is what suppressed is and again what do you base the "too" part on?

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

In Finnish army there is this command "don't lay under fire" "Ei saa jäädä tuleen makaamaan" why not implement it to this game too?

I think they have. If you use more experienced troops they probably don't suppress as easily (most likely because they remember the Ei saa... saying )

BTS have stated that they haven’t made a "fun to play" game but a realistic one and hoped that someone would like to play it.

I understand that you are entitled to your opinion but I hope that you would give the game a fair chance because it is a good game (IMHO better than CMBO) and deserves it.

[Quenaelin]

OK thanks, I will try to move to contact first and then advance, I was trying to advance all the way. But still my veteran troops didn't advance in to one enemy fox hole even how hard I tried. How about those fast moving machine guns then and few squads were laying under fire almost in the middle of the road and didn't run for cover, is this realistic?

[Duriel Krugaire]

I agree with Qenaelin, how can machinegun squads with machine guns, ammo, and battle gear of any physical strenght out distance troops with just battle gear. Just because someone brings up a subject for discussion, a lot of people on this board, get on some dam bandwagon that whatever the game 'is' is right, well f*ck off.

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by Duriel Krugaire:

I agree with Qenaelin, how can machinegun squads with machine guns, ammo, and battle gear of any physical strenght out distance troops with just battle gear. Just because someone brings up a subject for discussion, a lot of people on this board, get on some dam bandwagon that whatever the game 'is' is right, well f*ck off.

Situation: 1 platoon of infantry with support element advance through 200m of pine forest.

The inf platoon advance using 'advance' command. The supporting weapons(Maxims, mortars, AT-rifles) use Move (Advance not possible).

Result: The inf platoon tires enormously while the supporting elements are fine.

Hello? What else can you expect? Coordinate the movement properly and this problem will not surface. Use proper commands in their appropriate situations and you'r fine.

Jussi

[MasterGoodale]

My thoughts on this:

1. if the machine gunners start out in the dame fitness level and they are using the same move command through the same terrain they should tire more quickly than normal infantry.

2. U.S. Marines are not pansies. :eek:

3. I have only played a few battles but so far I have yet to experience fatigue becoming an unrealistic issue. I use Move or Move to contact almost all of the time except when under fire or up close and it works well and seems realistic to me.

4. It is very, very tiring to sprint, run or jog even short distances (100M +) in full gear, especially if the terrain us tough going, it's hot out, and/or your adrenaline is pumping and you are afraid. Even just carrying water and a rifle get's tiring quickly.

5. I realize it's not perfect, but overall this game is the most fun, most realistic game I have ever played.

[ParaBellum]

Quenaelin, you have to understand what "advance" means.

If you order your troops to advance, they will run a few meters, then hug the ground.

Then up again, run a few meters and again take cover. This is VERY tiring and overall not faster than a HMG team that just moves without interruption.

@ Duriel, I don't know WHAT you were reading, but all I read in this thread IMO was supposed to be helpful. You'll very rarely encounter a "f*ck off" mentality on this board as long as your questions are posed in a reasonable way.

[Quenaelin]

OK, don't start any flame wars becouse this post, I just tried to be constructive. Maybe I didn't know how to move troops in this game after all, it happened just like Jussi said, I was trying to advance and others got tired and machine guns were fine becouse they were just moving? But this is unbeleavable how slow other troops were advancing and machine guns just passed them by just moving? Running and advancing is really penalized in this game, am I right or not?

[ November 12, 2002, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

Running and advancing is really penalized in this game, am I right or not?

Running is penalized by being quite tiring and VERY bad for morale if under fire.

Advancing is more tiring, but better for morale. Troops can also fire when advancing(?). Advancing is also slower I think.

/Edited cause 'very' is a difficult word to spell/

Jussi

[ November 12, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Jussi Köhler ]

[Duriel Krugaire]

Well if the inf troops are advancing, they should be moving pretty fast, rest a minute, and take off again. It still doesn't make sense that sprinting troops are going to be slower overall than troops moving with machine guns. If you were in a race with a pack on, the other team had an extra 10lbs worth of tools to carry, would you be handicaped because you sprinted a few times? I think not.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

... But this is unbeleavable how slow other troops were advancing and machine guns just passed them by just moving?

Advancing troops are actually faster than moving HMGs as long as they don't get totally exhausted.

If you order your men to advance for a few hundred meters, they will get tired and then will advance only very slowly.

Use the advance order only when you need it to cover short distances when incoming fire is likely. Use "move"or "move to contact" whenever possible.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Duriel Krugaire:

Well if the inf troops are advancing, they should be moving pretty fast, rest a minute, and take off again. It still doesn't make sense that sprinting troops are going to be slower overall than troops moving with machine guns. If you were in a race with a pack on, the other team had an extra 10lbs worth of tools to carry, would you be handicaped because you sprinted a few times? I think not.

Duriel, I think you don not understand the "advance" command. The troops do not "move fast, then rest a minute, then take off again..."

The "advance command" simulates men running from cover to cover, providing fire support and using leap frogging techniques. It is supposed to be used when moving under fire.

[Fetchez la Vache]

I find myself using the 'Move' command more than in CMBO, purely because I need to make sure that my infantry stay 'rested' by the time the lead starts flying.

Once in combat I rarely now 'Advance' or 'Assault' for distances greater than 60-70m. In addition since I overwatch my units, they often get a rest every 1-2 minutes. In this way I rarely have a problem with exhausted troops, the only exception being those that have done the 'sneak of death' under fire. :-/

The poor old 'Fast' command barely gets a look-in nowadays.

Overall I like it a lot. Trying to keep my men fresh enough to be effective means (in my mind) that I have to treat them more as 'humans' and less as 'chess-pieces'. If you get my drift?

[billcarey]

It's also worthwhile to note that machineguns cannot advance, so if you give group orders to a group that includes squads and machineguns, the MGs will move while the squads advance. Hence, over a kilometer or so the machineguns will actually move faster because they're not getting tired as fast.

Does anyone know why machineguns (and AT teams and sharpshooters) can't advance? It would be nice for them to be able to slowly move with good cover into final firing positions.

- B.

[Quenaelin]

Speaking of weight, machine guns are also bulky to be moved in the pine forest. Finnish heavy machine gun used in WWII was usually Maxim (or finnish machine gun based in Maxim), here are characteristics of this gun. And this gun was carried with troops in deep snow also.

Weight 55,1 lbs

Mount 68,56 lbs

Ammo about 16 lbs or more

Total 140 lbs 64 kg

One man had gun and one carried mount and others were carrying ammo, in the winter there was sled which was pulled to carry this gun.

http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinSmallArms/FinAutomatics.htm

[ November 12, 2002, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Tha_Field_Marshall]

I would think that a fit soldier should be able to run more than 50-70 meters without tiring

[Dirtweasle]

I'm also noticing that troops "seem" to tire faster under simaler conditions as CMBO. As was just pointed out to me in a PBEM game MOVE does not tire out your troops. I agree that is true, but it also seems to me that the amount of time or energy a unit has at "READY" status before reporting a TIRING and then TIRED status is less than CMBO. So when you use move for long distances and then a few short RUN or ADVNACE bursts, your troops seem to fall off READY status quick. I have'nt done any testing on this, so it's purely an impression I somehow have and could very easily be mistaken.