Men are tired too easily?

[SteveL4]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

So why this advancing command cannot be "dash advance" "syöksyen eteenpäin" then, it would be more clear to everybody to understand.

Why not change the "Advance" command to something like -- "Get up from behind the tree, sprint 10 yards (or meters), get down behind the rock, motion to the squad to move ahead, cover them while they advance 10 yeards (or meters) and wait for them to get behind the small clump of bushes. Then, once they motion to you, you will sprint from tree to tree making sure you don't get shot and then dive for cover behind the log, advancing about 20 yards (or meters). Oh, yeah, take a shot of vodka before you start 'cause you're gonna be pooped out if you do this for very long".

You could change to "Move" command to something like -- "Walk at a gingerly pace, make small talk with the soldier next to you (in a quiet voice of course) and you may smoke a cigarette if you'd like. Make sure your weapon is on 'safe' as we don't expect enemy contact. Take your time, and maybe have a sip of water from your canteen so you don't tire/get tired/get exhausted".

You could then change the "Movement to Contact" command to something like -- "Take your weapon off 'safe' and keep a close eye out as we advance 'cause the bad guys are just ahead. Take your time though so you don't get tired".

Do you think this would work?

[Quenaelin]

Thanks, glad to know that somebody really knows what those commands are meaning and those descriptions would clarify some things in this game if it really is how developers intended. If those tiredness calculations are really made with full backpacks on, there should be command to "Remove your backpacks and begin advance immediatly, by leaping and diving to cover to cover behind the logs and trees" that should help them not get tired so easily. I didn't knew that troops are actually moving with full backpacks all the time when they are advancing, there is very little info what troops are carrying in this game.

Ok, but I don't still understand, they were not under fire and still got so tired, and I beleave when you are under fire there is so much adrenaline pumped in your veins that you could do anything to save your neck and kill the enemy who is shooting at you or then get panicked if sky is really filled with led, but sleeping time is not in the middle of the battle. When advancing like you described, others who are covering advance are actually being able to rest their feet, by not moving.

[ November 13, 2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

Thanks, glad to know that somebody really knows what those commands are meaning ...

Yeah, it was pretty difficult...

But then I decided to read the manual

which helped tremendously...

"...tactical movement to be used when under fire by enemy...simulates running from cover to cover...providing covering fire..."

[Andreas]

Two possibilities Quenalin:

1) You don't have the manual, and have pirated the game.

2) You have the manual, but don't give a flying monkey's about reading it, instead wasting everybody's time.

[Fetchez la Vache]

If it provokes a discussion, then I forgive him.

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

Ok, but I don't still understand

I give up.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

If it provokes a discussion, then I forgive him.

Aren't you the little instigator

[Quenaelin]

OK, I give up too, I have read the manual only partly, but this moving is part I have read. Moving to cover to cover doesn't make justify to that men get so exhausted when moving cover to cover in the forest. In open field I would undestand it, becouse there is no cover to run for, so you might get exhausted if you are searching for cover. And backpacks, where in the manual says that soldiers has full backpacks, sorry, but I haven't read that part yet?

[ November 13, 2002, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Fetchez la Vache]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Aren't you the little instigator

Discuss...

[Jussi Köhler]

Please Quenaelin, say that you are not serious.

You are giving us Finns a bad name...

At least we dont surrender like the French

Too thickheaded to surrender...

[Swift]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Quenaelin:

Ok, but I don't still understand

I give up.</font>

[SteveL4]

Quenaelin, I think you're missing the whole point here... that you are INTENTIONALLY SELECTING this command. You DO have other options. Just for fun, let's say that when you click on a squad, the commands that you could issue were 1) Drink water, 2) eat food, 3) smoke cigarette, 4) take asprin or 5) Drink vodka. If you continually select option 5, drink vodka, you're troops will eventually get drunk (unless you issue options 1, 2, and 4 shortly after). I think that if these were legitimate options, and you kept selecting option 5, your last response would have read:

" Originally posted by Quenaelin:

[QB]OK, I give up too, I have read the manual only partly, but this drinking is part I have read. Drinking heavily from party to party doesn't make justify to that men get so drunk when drinking in the bars. In casual party I would undestand it, becouse there is no food to reach for, so you might get drunk if you are searching for food. And alcoholics, where in the manual says that soldiers can become alcohoics, sorry, but I haven't read that part yet? "

I doubt this comparision will help, but, I'm getting a hangover reading the verbal tennis match!

[Eden Smallwood]

The most succinct way to describe the problem seems to me that there is a command missing from our movement choices.

MtC becomes all but useless as the battle progresses for units anywhere towards the front. What would help would be a Move To Danger command.

Like MtC, the units will attempt to arrive at point B unfatigued. UNLIKE "Move", they will not be sipping chai lattes, and they will not freak if they truly enouncter the enemy. UNLIKE MtC, they will not stop just because they notice a routed enemy crew six miles away. UNLIKE Advance, they will not be exhausted by the time they get there... Also UNLIKE Sneak, Move, Advance and just about everything but MtC, if an enemy appears and threatens or god forbid fires on me, the order is *cancelled* and forward motion ceases while the units put up their best defense.

IOW, there should be way to get from point A to point B in the common circumstance that, while the enemy is *visible* from here, I am not in danger from any *currently visible* enemy, and I should be able to arrive at point B safe, sound, and unfatigued, in a reasonable amount of time while exercising all due caution. Not crawling on my belly across Asia, just due caution.

There can be visible enemies who are not a danger.

Eden

[Tarquelne]

There can be visible enemies who are not a danger.

"Frisco!"

"Lt. Smallwood, sir?"

"I want your section to advance to the house sheltered by that little hill over there."

"What about the enemy squad to the north, sir?"

"They aren't a danger."

"They'll probably see us, sir."

"They aren't a danger."

"Uh huh... Sir."

"Off you go, Frisco."

"Sir! Yes, sir!"

/scamper scamper/

"No no NO, Frisco! You'll be too tired when you get there that way! No bound and cover!"

"Sir?"

/crawl crawl crawl/

"Hurry it up! What's wrong with Jenkin's, can't he crawl? What? You're tired!? Get up, move, move, move!"

/scamper/

"FRISCO!"

"Sir!"

/saunter saunter BRAAAAAAPPPP crawl crawl crawl/

"Sgt. get those men off the ground. YOU ARE IN NO DANGER!"

"Sir!"

"Was that a "Yes, Sir!" or a "No, Sir", Frisco!?"

"Sir!"

Maybe after the patch...

[ November 13, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Mark Gallear]

Out of interest is there a set time for troops to recover from the tired and exhausted state. Set time/random? :confused:

Do commanders have any effect on this recovery?

What are the disadvantages of fighting whilst totally knackered?

Does continuing to move while exhausted, effect the time? I can think of situations when you have to sneak your heavy weapons to get them into position even after they have become exhausted.

[Wretch]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

What would help would be a Move To Danger command.

Like MtC, the units will attempt to arrive at point B unfatigued. UNLIKE "Move", they will not be sipping chai lattes, and they will not freak if they truly enouncter the enemy. UNLIKE MtC, they will not stop just because they notice a routed enemy crew six miles away.

This sounds like what we may have after the patch if we use MtC+CA. Maybe...

Michael

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

From the patch thread. Not exactly on target, but I know some of the people here are interested in this:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Madmatt:

* Fatigue rate for sneak movement is moderately reduced.

</font>

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

"Turkey Lean! Get Over Here, MAGGOT!!"

" Sir, ***** General Smallwood, sir?"

"I want your section to move to the house sheltered by that little hill over there."

"What about the enemy to the north, sir?"

"They aren't a danger, because..."

A) It's just a damn Crew, I think you can make it to Point Bravo relatively intact, nonfatigued, and dare I say it even somewhat undetected, with any luck.

It's a Tank Hunter Team, which might be a threat under other circumstances, but currently looks pretty dern *Routed* to me. Which makes sense, given that we just wacked half his team, and the other half is bleeding from his nose.

C) It's an MG nest, really oriented in the other direction, who is currently taking multiple Mortar unit targetting from Chicken Platoon. He is probably feeling preoccupied right now with the bottom of his foxhole.

D) That unit's firepower doesn't even REACH to this copse, OK???

E) Sure, if that KV starts pointing at you, hit the ground. But otherwise, I think he's worried about our Tigers, ya know?

In all these cases, what I mean by this command is that the unit moves to Point B and stops to defend if and only if they are fired upon or there is a clear and present danger which cannot be overlooked. IOW, there are two senses of "Contact", only one of which is used in our MtC.

Contact means "I see you"

Contact means "Hard rain is falling"

We have the first, we don't have the second. In point of fact, what would really be nice, (here we go again) would be the SOPs of "Stop on Sight" and "Stop on Danger", but what I'm suggesting here *fits* into the current scheme of things, and I think it would help and is noticeably missing.

How does that strike you?

Eden

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

IOW, there are two senses of "Contact", only one of which is used in our MtC.

Contact means "I see you"

Contact means "Hard rain is falling"

We have the first, we don't have the second. In point of fact, what would really be nice, (here we go again) would be the SOPs of "Stop on Sight" and "Stop on Danger", but what I'm suggesting here *fits* into the current scheme of things, and I think it would help and is noticeably missing.

How does that strike you?

Eden[/QB]

Bravo, General Smallwood, very well said!!

As the (to?) many posts attest there is two very split camps on this topic, I, for one, feel as you and many others that there is just one teeny, tiny thing missing here, that 1 more command.

I'd like to enlist with your army sir!!

KC

[Guest Mike]

Of course men tire too easily - any woman will tell you as much.

Either that or they're never tired enough - any woman can tell you that too!!

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

"They aren't a danger, because..."

A) It's just a damn Crew, I think you can make it to Point Bravo relatively intact, nonfatigued, and dare I say it even somewhat undetected, with any luck.

It's a Tank Hunter Team, which might be a threat under other circumstances, but currently looks pretty dern *Routed* to me. Which makes sense, given that we just wacked half his team, and the other half is bleeding from his nose.

C) It's an MG nest, really oriented in the other direction, who is currently taking multiple Mortar unit targetting from Chicken Platoon. He is probably feeling preoccupied right now with the bottom of his foxhole.

D) That unit's firepower doesn't even REACH to this copse, OK???

E) Sure, if that KV starts pointing at you, hit the ground. But otherwise, I think he's worried about our Tigers, ya know?

If it's really that safe, why not use move? Or is the CO just bull$******* the troops?

We could add another type of move to contact command (move and drop if taking fire), and we could split out sneak and crawl, and I daresay we could add others. But how far do you go? Are these "necessary" or just "nice"?

I'm not saying that the system is perfect, I just wonder how many options we add to the UI before the marginal benefits outweigh the overheads.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Brian Rock:

If it's really that safe, why not use move?

Currently, I do. However, the manual states that "Move" is to be used where contact is not expected to occur- it is implied to be a flippant lah de dah walk to the local Starbucks. The manual states clearly that there is a *morale penalty* if the enemy is encountered when using Move. IOW,

"Ohmigod! The enemy!!! I need to put my CD player away and get my gun!!"

Second, I'm concerned with their behaviour with an enemy who *appears*, or who seemed relatively innocuous at the turn's start, but is now a lethal threat. Sneak, for example, will cause the unit to *continue* sneaking straight towards the newly discovered foxhole with the newly discovered enemy HMG which is newly plastering my Sneaking unit with newly manufactured bullets. That behaviour quite understandably makes the unit prone to Panic, which gets us to a whole other basket of Finns. The desire is to have the unit stop and defend IF and ONLY IF a threat appears which can't be bypassed.

Now come on- I've said this too many ways now.

We could add another type of move to contact command (move and drop if taking fire), and we could split out sneak and crawl, and I daresay we could add others. But how far do you go?

Oh, gosh... How about we "go" until we don't have a wide spectrum of people who feel emphatically that the (otherwise awesome) game is unnecessarily handicapped in that respect? We go until it is no longer the case that every other new person who receives the game comes here asking, "Why are my troops so dang tired?"

I didn't start this thread- I posted many many lifetimes ago, asking why, in the *DEMO*, were my troops getting exhausted just by sneaking? Were they really crawling on their bellies across the continent? So these seem to be recurring questions, (or "whines", if you insist), and the simplest explanation seems to me that there's something here worthwhile to address.

Eden

[WWB]

With the quickness that troops go to ground in CMBB, so long as you are not right on top of the enemy one can easily get away with move. What happens when moving troops get fired upon by an MG or two at 250m? Most likely they will go to ground, probably not even taking a casualty and start sneaking.

So, next turn, change that sneak waypoint into an advance and get em the hell out of the way. Or just halt them and return fire.

This absolute aversion to the move command is kind of funny to me.

WWB

[massimorocca]

Sneaking is the problem. Sneakink is not always but too often the choice of the units under fire and what units do when sneaking is sometimes out of logic. They try to sneak to the better covering place around, good but not as matter of faith. Yesterday playtesting one of the incoming Stalingrad Pack scenario I saw some of my Russian units sneaking TOWARD the enemy trench from where the Italians was ripping'em in pieces. They had chosen 87mt path on the belly, every inch more close to the enemy.

In a real situation like this real soldiers could made 3 moves. 1) Freeze on the ground, that isn't never a flat table, an half foot could made the difference, may be also play dead waiting for better time. Men in trenches don't have a so good LOS against a target that hit the dust, more if they are as usually in this game also under fire from some others enemy. 2) If they feel desperate the situation and have enough stamina RUSH against the enemy (plenty of similar occurence in any war tales) also if the odds seem all against'em 3) If they feel desperate the situation and have not stamina, green, conscripts, or panicked they start run as rabbits. Quick run and drop, quick run and drop but toward the STARTING position.