How do co's combat bonuses get determined?

[xerxes]

What determines your co's combat bonuses.

I just started a pbem where I took a regular company and all the co's look like they just got shipped to europe with the pocket edition of "how to command in 3 easy steps."

1/2 of them have no bonus. 1/2 have a +1 in one or at most two categories. No +2 anywhere.

Question: Is this normal? Do you really have to buy vets or better to get decent co's?

Makes me think I should always buy the best quality available.

- xerxes

[engy]

Just for comparison, here's the list of my Regular HQ's in a current PBEM (with bonus listed in order that you see on the screen...Radius/Morale/Combat/Stealth)

A-0 +1/+1/+1/0

A-1 +2/0/+1/0

B-0 0/+1/+2/0

C-0 +2/0/0/+1

D-0 0/+2/0/+1

E-0 +2/+2/+2/+2 (!!! Unbelievable, but true !!!)

F-0 0/0/0/+2

G-0 0/+1/0/+1

H-0 0/+1/0/+1

Admittedly, this is one of my best groups of HQ's I've ever seen, but it still shows that Regular troops can get decent HQ's. So, to answer your question: I don't know. Maybe purely randomly?

[xerxes]

omg. Want to trade? I'll give you two no bonus HQs and 1 regular zook for your E-0. Please email me your HQ if that's acceptable.

thx.

And that certainly does answer my question. Glad I'm not playing you on that pbem. heh.

- xerxes

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

I just started a pbem where I took a regular company and all the co's look like they just got shipped to europe with the pocket edition of "how to command in 3 easy steps."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing the Germans in a late war month? I seem to get a bunch like this whenever I do.

[engy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

I'll give you two no bonus HQs and 1 regular zook for your E-0.

And that certainly does answer my question. Glad I'm not playing you on that pbem. heh.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, no deal. I'm handling his infantry quite fine, but my AT guns are going down one by one with no kills. (Kris, stop reading right here!!!) So, he has 4 tanks about to crest the ridge (one of which is a dedicated infantry killer), and I think I'm in trouble, unless he brings his tanks real close. So, I need a bunch of AT help...you can have E-0 for two zooks and a Hellcat.

[xerxes]

allies. don't know about the month.

-x

[Agua]

Ya know, there may well be some way that date enters into the bonus of the HQ units, but I haven't noticed it. It appears to be plainly random. I can say that I don't see any improvement with the purchase of veterans over regulars. I get crap HQ regardless of their experience. I have to say it seems there are very few tcp/ip I play where I don't get just **** HQ units with no bonuses (usual case), or a bonus that is not very useful in the terrain (i.e., command bonus in heavily wooded terrain - once the squad is out of los, influence is lost anyway).

When you get to crack/elite, it *seems* like there's a greater likelihood of getting good bonuses, but that's just anecdotal speculation on my part.

[rleete]

I just ran a very unscientific test. Just kept creating QB's, and checking out the HQ units. I appears to me to be random, and while crack and elite always had some bonus, it looks like they weren't that much better.

[Chad Harrison]

i had always assumed that the crack and elite HQ units always had the BEST bonus', and experience has shown that. the other night in a QB, my two of my crack HQ has NO bonus' at all! not even a morale one! to make it even more frustrating, my two regular HQ's had more than 4 bonus' each!!! :mad: well, i suppose those crack boys had been on the front line for months digging trenches, but hey, they sure could dig those trenches fast! they were CRACK trench diggers!!

the bonus' are purely random, but the better they are, they better the chances.

[Holman]

It's my understanding that the experience level of a HQ is the baseline to which the bonus is added. In other words, a Regular HQ with +1 in all areas is equivalent to a Veteran HQ with no bonuses at all. Thus, your Elite HQ with no bonuses is still better than a Regular HQ with +2 in everything. Since there are no "negative" bonuses, experience still means a lot for HQs regardless of their random perks.

Also, I believe the CM manual states that platoon HQs tend to have more combat and stealth bonuses, while Company and Battalian HQs have more morale and command radius bonuses.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martyr:

Thus, your Elite HQ with no bonuses is still better than a Regular HQ with +2 in everything. Since there are no "negative" bonuses, experience still means a lot for HQs regardless of their random perks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i had never hear that before, but it does make sense. did you read/hear that or did you run some tests? i would hope it was true, it would make me feel better about my elite no bonus HQ units.

Also, I believe the CM manual states that platoon HQs tend to have more combat and stealth bonuses, while Company and Battalian HQs have more morale and command radius bonuses.

[Agua]

Seriously, it is with regard to this type of information that I find the manual to be lacking. There is a lot of info in there but a lot of detailed things regarding the % effect upon such things as morale/firepower/steal should be included in tables. Don't anyone take this as dumping on CM; it is the greatest computer wargame, ever, and by a long ways, but the manual ought to include things such as concealment and movement tables. And before I hear this for the umpteenth time regarding concealment, I know, I know, Juju did an exposure table: exposure does not equal concealment. Exposure concerns the susceptibility of a unit to fire; concealment refers to the ability of a unit to remain unobserved.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agua:

There is a lot of info in there but a lot of detailed things regarding the % effect upon such things as morale/firepower/steal should be included in tables. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if anyone ever figures out those % or has any clue, id be the first one in line to find out what they are. i would like to see those things included in CM2:BB. maybe just wishful thinking, but maybe.

[Agua]

There IS a table of HQ effect upon command delay and range over at CMHQ under "Articles", I believe.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

There IS a table of HQ effect upon command delay and range over at CMHQ under "Articles", I believe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

here's that link if someones interested: http://www.combatmission.com/articles/HQ/hq.asp

i see the delay times, thanks, but has anyone ever seen or tested the combat effectiveness percentage increase (or numerical?)? has BTS ever released any information that gives any clues to HOW much better a +2 combat bonus is than a +1 or +0? just curious. :confused:

[Agua]

Chad, as far as I know, and I have done an awful lot of searching and studying, there is no such table and I'm unaware of anything published on the effects of HQ on firepower.

I'm aware of firepower tables prepared by Chris Hare, and they are a labor of love, but they do not reflect the effect of HQ's. I tried some rough tests with concealment in various terrains and at one time tried to get some people to help me. The offer still stands (I have a map setup). However, it is really a momentous undertaking to do these types of tests. A basic table that I have NEVER seen is movement. People on the board have stated that they "believed" someone had prepared a table at one time, but no one has been able to find the tables, if they were in fact posted.

One thing exacerbates the difficulty performing these tests is the "fuzzy logic" element, which seems to generate a range of values a long a continuum of effects rather than hard and fast numbers.

Gee, that was a long-assed and rambling answer. Sorry.

[markwalker]

I'm aware of firepower tables prepared by Chris Hare, and they are a labor of love, but they do not reflect the effect of HQ's. I tried some rough tests with concealment in various terrains

Hi Folks,

I'm new to these boards, but a long-time player. Can anyone give me a link to the tables that Chris put together?

Thanks,

Mark

[Agua]

Combat Mission Database

They are near the bottom of the page.

[Fraser]

What surprizes me is how you can get quite good bonuses even with conscript C&C units, like a conscript German platoon unit I'm playing with right now with +2 combat, +2 stealth and +1 morale

[Chad Harrison]

for whatever they are worth, it makes me darn proud to see my regular troops with better "on screen" bonus' than the vetern troops. whether they are actually worth "less" than vetern troops i still dont know, it just looks good and from what i have seen, they perform just as good as a vetern leader with similar bonus'.

[Agua]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

i do recall that comment, but does that mean that the platoon HQ bonus' that are shown are more effective for combat? or is there just a greater chance of the platoon HQ getting better combat bonus'? just curious and trying to learn more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK, the platoon HQ with no bonus has the same influence upon his troops as the higher echelon HQ's with the same experience and no bonus. It is, as you said, a greater chance that the platoon HQ will have a combat bonus and a company HQ and higher will have a command bonus.

[Dschugaschwili]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agua:

[...] I have to say it seems there are very few tcp/ip I play where I don't get just **** HQ units with no bonuses (usual case), or a bonus that is not very useful in the terrain (i.e., command bonus in heavily wooded terrain - once the squad is out of los, influence is lost anyway).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the command bonus is perhaps the best bonus you can get in woods because the influence is not lost once you're out of LOS, but the in-command distance is halved in that case. So with a regular +2 command HQ you still have 50m command radius in woods which is enough most of the time.

Other points raised in this thread: the combat bonus is not included in the displayed firepower rating of your units. This is why there is no information available about how big this bonus is.

And even if you get one of those 4x +0 HQs you should remember that being in command of a +0 HQ is still better than being totally out of command and control.

Dschugaschwili

[WineCape]

A related question specific to AT-gun assets:

(a) Does the zap sign (combat bonus) of HQ's really improve the accuracy or To-Hit% of AT-guns?

( What will be the best HQ bonuses be for AT-guns? I assume the heart sign (morale bonus) is obviously a bonus that will keep the firing crew from being panicked/pinned if fired upon. Is the stealth HQ bonus really that effective, given the fact that once a 75mm/88mm gun opens up, it is hard to conceal them from the enemy while firing due to their size and silhouette.

Or better put, if I hide a AT-gun in tall pines with a +2 Stealth HQ bonus, will the stealth factor be of greater effect than if the AT-gun were to be within less cover ONCE THE AT-GUN HAS OPEN UP and FIRING away?

Sincerely,

Charl Theron

-----------------

Come, come, good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used; exclaim no more against it.

-- William Shakespear "Othello" Act II

[Slyspy]

For what it is worth, I always seem to get better officers at all command levels when using Volksturm troops than I do when using other German forces. This has led me to conclude that officer quality is in some way dependent on force compostion. This is just a guess though, designed to comfort me in my ignorance.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by WineCape:

[QB]A related question specific to AT-gun assets:

(a) Does the zap sign (combat bonus) of HQ's really improve the accuracy or To-Hit% of AT-guns?

( What will be the best HQ bonuses be for AT-guns? I assume the heart sign (morale bonus) is obviously a bonus that will keep the firing crew from being panicked/pinned if fired upon. Is the stealth HQ bonus really that effective, given the fact that once a 75mm/88mm gun opens up, it is hard to conceal them from the enemy while firing due to their size and silhouette.

Or better put, if I hide a AT-gun in tall pines with a +2 Stealth HQ bonus, will the stealth factor be of greater effect than if the AT-gun were to be within less cover ONCE THE AT-GUN HAS OPEN UP and FIRING away?

Sincerely,

Charl Theron

[QB]