Quality over Quantity?

[LC-]

I know this have probably been brought up before but I am new to CM and this forum. But refering to AFVs in CM do you take the big moster vehicles like the Tiger and larger gun Shermans? or do you go with something that you can take more of like the PzKw IVs? I assume it could mostly be personal preference but does terrain make a difference too?

[Mr. Johnson--]

To expand on Pillar'short but sweet comment.

On defense your already strapped for cash and can expect to be outnumbered so you always are going to want an extra platoon, an extra FO, and an extra platoon of tanks.

And on offense, you want soldiers that will keep running towards that damn MG nest so veterans become your weapon of choice. But on the other hand, the Russian tactic of simple swarming the enemy with a ton of crap works well.

[Warmaker]

As a matter of preference, as far as AFVs go, quality always goes over quantity on offense or defense. If I have my choice I'll take a Tiger or Panther over the PzKpfw IVs which are just too vulnerable in CMBO. Survivability, lethality, etc. Not to say that the "cheaper" stuff has no place in my force selection. For support of my Big Cats, the PzKpfw IV is outstanding. Like the early model Sherman 75s, the PzKpfw IV is a serious threat once you feel the opposition's AT capability is greatly diminished or destroyed. It's just that I'm used to the higher performance of good crews with good equipment which pays off more than the extreme contrast... cheap equipment with inexperienced crews. But again it is a matter of taste.

Also, as quality/quantity goes it depends on the role I expect an AFV to do. For duties of primarily attacking soft targets (ATGs/infantry/unarmored targets basically) you don't need the high costs of crack/elite crews. Regular is effective enough engaging these targets. Engaging other AFVs though is another story. A good crew with a good weapon will more than likely get off the killing shot the first time around than multiple misses.

As far as numbers go: More burning tanks to litter the battle field as my Panthers wade through the mess to the objective. Gotta feed the Cats right?

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[massimorocca]

Quantity if you can manoeuvre. Quality if you are force to static defense or frontal assault. No tanks could survive if a couple of less value armored popped up for flank shots while another couple hold its attention from the front. That always works in the real war. German tanks was inferior to French Charb or russian KV and T34 but they could wipe it out with mobility and coordination. Shermans and T34 was not up to Panthers and Tigers but the number works for the worst against the best.

Massimo

[Ron]

For AFVs I would usually go for a quantity/quality mix whether on attack or defense, with the quantity factor being dominant. Survivabilty, in speed and/or armor, along with a decent gun for the intended role is key. There are *bargains* for the QB player playing either side which he will gravitate to eventually if playing to maximize his force and win.

For example, for the Germans Stugs are cheap and fill the AT/infantry role nicely in the hands of a decent player; to specialize then Hetzers and JgPzs for the AT work and StuHs for infantry. Tanks like the MkIV, Panther and Tiger are more expensive though not necessarily *better*, however they do have their own advantages over the SPs. For the US the Hellcat is the premier choice IMO for AT work and plain Shermans for AT/infantry, HMCs and Priests specialize in infantry support; the Brits have the Archer and the more expensive Firefly/Challenger to fill the AT role and the 95mm Cromwell for infantry support. All are fairly cheap to maximize quantity yet all are very effective.

In the end it is personal preference as all AFVs are vulnerable and even the most fragile ones can be used to deadly effect. A caveat though is to use the increased quantity of lesser AFVs in mass not individually. Another matter is experience, I usually find the increased cost of Vet AFVs isn't justified in their better reactions and hit chance, I prefer to stay with Reg to get more, YMMV.

The same holds true in selecting infantry and suppost weapons like AT guns, more is almost always better. A 50mm or 6pnder AT gun can be just as effective as their larger cousins and in many cases are more survivable. Here it can pay to have a few higher experienced units to get that first shot in.

For me terrain is mostly a factor regarding ground conditions, where I will try to pick AFVs with a good ground pressure to avoid bogging and immobilizations, otherwise I don't pay it much mind.

Hope that helps.

Ron

[Pak40]

LC,

I do something a little different than what you're asking about.

If I buy an armored vehicle for the purposes of tank killing, I usually go for quality crews on cheaper vehicles. Veteran Hellcat, Veteran Hetzers etc. I want my first shot to count.

But if I buy a tank/SP gun for the purposes of infantry killing then I get regular crews. Regular Priests, Regular Stuh42 etc.

If I know it's going to be a small map where I can't be outflanked, then I usually get a better armoured vehicle.

[Redwolf]

Unless used purely for overwatch or sniping, I highly prefer to get AFV in groups of at least three.

I would take three Pz IV over two Panthers, but I would take four Panthers over six Panzer IV.

Then, there is the issue of buying a too big gun. If you are fighting enemy AFVs that are vulnerable to the 37mm, then the 37mm is actually better than a 75mm or 76mm, because you get more ammo, higher ROF, sometimes higher accuracy, often a faster turret with the small gun.

If you are fighting enemy AFVs that need a certain gun to kill, then it is of course not senseful to buy more vehicles of a kind with a smaller gun.

[Gyrene]

Weather conditions, especially visibility should also play a big factor on you quality choice, night/fog games are not places for regular troops, they'll panic quicker than an Axis Ladder Player on a random QB.

Gyrene

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Gyrene ]

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

... they'll panic quicker than an Axis Ladder Player on a random QB.

Gyrene

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!

Really like this one!

[Jarmo]

Attack = quantity

Defend = quality

Take a panther on attack and you will lose it to a flank shot from some stupid hidden light gun. Or you will come upon an 88 and all the extra armour of your Jumbo won't help you one bit.

Much better to have 3 smaller vehicles. When a gun opens up, you'll lose one tank. If unlucky. But the gun dies quickly in any case.

On defend you simply have to get more mileage out of your units. This means not picking tanks that die from a stray shot. Infantry that doesn't break when a 2" mortar shell goes off nearby.

Well that's what I think anyway. At least for now.

Ask me tomorrow and I'll have made a 180 degree turn...

[CombinedArms]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

[QB]

Attack = quantity

Defend = quality

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I just played a 2000 pt. quick battle against the AI with randomly selected forces. I got a lot of Regular US infantry (and 3 Jumbo 76s--powerful tanks I never would have chosen for myself in such an ahistorical combo). The Axis got a few Elite Pioneer infantry units, plus an Elite Marder and Hetzer. The Marder & Hetzer died fast. The Elite Pioneers were extremely hard to uproot from their positions, but they were so few that each rugged squad was simply swamped in its turn. Now no human might have chosen those particular forces (there were also 4 elite HTs--pretty useless on defense against 3 Jumbos), and I'm sure Jarmo isn't advocating such a force, but my point is that you can take the quality emphasis on defense a bit too far. Veteran defenders might have been reasonable, but 100% elites simply spreads the forces too thin.

Personally, I don't like to mess with conscripts or greens, but I'm happy to fight with regulars, and the occasional veteran, most of the time.

[jKMkIII]

It is true that taking quality element too far in defence can be dangerous. I remember playing battle where I was defending small village and quite big area around it with FJ troops, and I think I had all of them veterans. And my enemy was attacking regular brit&US troops..

Sure my troops, that were still alive after infernal bombarment, were hard to kick out form heavy buildings/forests they were but quantity of enemies running against my few defenders was not fun. I think in my enemys main attack he had 1 platoon for every team I got. Luckily got 2 88mm bunkers and 1 or 2 75mm AT guns positioned well so his tanks had to stay away from action.

After all I won, but I think that was just because my opponent surrended (even I was certain I was going to loose

[Cybeq]

Usually I prefer quantity as the U.S. and quality as the Germans. The U.S. armor lends itself to group tactics very well. Weak armor combined with weak guns that swing fast and shoot quick just beg to be used in swarming tactics. I absolutely love killing Panthers with Stuarts. It makes me giddy. Recently I've been playing QB's using both quantity and quality methods as both the Axis and the Allies and I have found the Allies can be more effective at quality than the Axis can be at quantity. In other words you have more flexability as the Allies but I think a quality approach is the way to go as the Germans. I'll take one King Tiger over 5 Lynx's any day. Conversely, I'd prefer 5 Stuarts to one Pershing.

[Monty's Double]

I'll get back to you guys in a few days on this one. I'm currently playing a night QB over e-mail (Hi Ned). I'm defending a town with Green/Conscript Volksgrenadiers against a high quality mechanised US force. We deliberately wanted to see how attacking with (I'd guess, I haven't seen his force) a numerically smaller force would work. Oh yeah, and Ned wants to see what flamethrowers look like at night. Ooh, watch the pretty lights....

[ned lud]

yeh monty all Ive purchased is 40 flamethrowers - I'm gonna rope the chaps together real close - walk them up to your MG nests and wait for the fireworks !

no longer a night game ! - bring your german sausages

all my love - ned