What Russian units could be considered ELITE? (Historically speaking.)

[Gpig]

Hi all,

This may have been discussed, but when I did a search for RUSSIAN ELITE, it spewed out so much stuff I didn't know where to begin.

I was just wondering about the Russian equivalent to Allied/Axis Airborne. Or other some such units (of Russian creation) that could have been (or were considered) ELITE status (for a CM game).

Were there any much ballyhooed units in particular? Did they have anything like Commando teams/units?

Just curious.

Gpig

[Michael Dorosh]

GUARDS units were designated as such as a reward for good service; they were further rewarded with better equipment and I believe pick of the better recruits; I am sure someone with better info will advise me.

They had naval infantry but they were not on a par with the SNLF of the Japanese or the USMC.

[gatpr]

Weren't Rayoviki (help with spelling) the forerunner of the Spetnaz units? That seems to meet the elite criteria.

[Skipper]

The fact that airborne divisions were more combat-capable than US Army average doesn't actually make them elite "in CM terms". Read the CM manual.

Speaking of Soviet "better than regular" units, starting from fall 1941, RKKA formations that distinguished themselves in combat were awarded Guards (Gvardia) status.

Guards units were usually better equipped, better manned, and employed in critical situations more often than normal units.

MLRS regiments and airborne divisions reformed as infantry divisions were granted this status automatically.

Also come to mind NKVD divisions formed from border guard, and assault engineer brigades.

Definitely, there were commando units, too. Such as divisional recon companies, long-range recon companies, Osnaz companies etc.

[Michael Emrys]

The identification of specific units in the Red Army as elite might be tricky. As others have noted, those units that performed well in the field were often designated Guards and given the pick of personnel and equipment. The problem is, that from late 1941 to mid-1943 the level of training and junior leadership in the Red Army was characterized more by haste than careful preparation for battle. In comparison to the general run of western armies during that period, their troops base level rating (in CM terms) should be conscript or at best green, whereas most of their German opponents would start with a regular or occasionally a veteran status, sometimes even higher. At the same time, it must be noted that throughout the war there were discrete Soviet units that fought with great distinction and éclat and could be justly rated veteran or crack. And nearly all Soviet formations when well led fought with dogged determination on defense.

Michael

[c3k]

To expand on the "Guards" theme: the units given

Guards status had a different TO&E than standard units. Better stuff AND more of it.

Ken

[Skipper]

> the units given Guards status had a different

> TO&E than standard units. Better stuff AND more

> of it.

Sometimes, but not at all necessarily.

[Mr. Johnson--]

What about shock armies?

[Bruno Weiss]

I think as was pointed out above, the "when" factors into such a designation from the standpoint of the title "Guards" actually meaning something in terms of fighting strength. But I agree that overall they were generally seen as, or relied upon as elite forces.

If you were looking for specifics, I would cast a vote for 5th Guards Tanks Army at Cherkassy, the Korsun Pocket. Critics point out that they were basically held by 11th and 14th Panzer divisions but the 5th Guards TA fought tenaciously in abysmal conditions allowing a flood of Soviet tanks and infantry to pour into the pocket around the German flanks.

I'm sure there are endless such examples. The Cherkassy/Korsun Pocket just happens to be one of my own personal interests.

[Laurent_Lavail]

Please , do not forget that the Russians are the first to have used the parachutists. Well before German. Their parachutists were good soldiers.

Sorry for my weak english.

Laurent

[Bullethead]

Originally posted by Laurent_Lavail:

Please , do not forget that the Russians are the first to have used the parachutists. Well before German. Their parachutists were good soldiers.

Sorry for my weak english.

Laurent

Yeah.

I just got a book by Glantz about Soviet airborne units. At the start of the war, they had like 100,000 trained paratroopers who were considered "elite" in terms of status, but of course don't meet the CM definition, which is YEARS of combat. Still, they had a very high standard of traning, individual initiative was emphasized, etc. Plus some had combat experience as infantry in the Winter War.

So I'd rate all these 1941 airborne units as at least regular in CM terms, perhaps with some veterans. This in contrast to the largely conscript and green units forming the bulk of the 1941 Red Army.

Despite leading the world in the theory, practice, and size of airborne forces in 1941, however, the Russians didn't do that many large airdrops. The last was in 1943, although they continued with small-scale ops for the whole war.

Also, the Russians had to start over from scratch a couple times. Most of the pre-war airborne units got converted to guards rifle divisions and used up defending Moscow. So they raised another batch in late 1942 - early 1942 and spent all that effort training them. So got used in a large op around Viasma but the others were used up as guards rifle divisions to Stalingrad. So then they raised up another batch starting in late 1942 - early 1943 and used them up at Kursk and crossing the Dnepr. It's still noteworthy, however, that the rifle divisions formed from airborne units were specially tagged. They were still considered of "elite" status so could only be used for specific, offensive jobs. IOW, they were distinguished from other guards rifle divisions formed in the usual way.

The WW2 history of Russian airborne forces is fascinating, BTW. Before reading this book, I'd never heard of their ops. This is because most failed so the Russians didn't say much about them at the time, even though they were impressive even in failure. They had large airborne forces operating behind German lines for several months on occasion. I recommend this Glantz book, although the maps suck rocks.

[Captain Wacky]

Actually it was against Soviet military law for any unit to be more elite than another. The policy was formally implemented by Stalin's Order no. 325. The thought was that if some units performed better over others and received the best weps and recruits they would begin to develop a bourgousie attitude and look down on everyone else. The very thought of anyone out-performing anyone else and rewards based on merit went directly against the deepest communist fundamentals, so spectacular performances in combat were deemed illegal and counter-revolutionary.

It is a well known fact that units which went ahead and did fight exceedingly well were severely punished when they came off the front. The unit in question would be formed up and its best soldiers shot as an example to all who would dare threaten the Soviet ideals of hegemony, poor quality, and thoughtlessness. The process would be continued until the unit in question's performance had nose-dived like an early Russian space rocket.

There is also strong evidence that NKVD troops were placed behind a unit about to jump off into combat. These NKVD units were equipped with machine guns and were expected to oversee the battlefield and the progress made by the troops. If any soldiers seemed to be trying to hard or performing too well they were subsequentially machine gunned to death. That way Stalin would be ensured that his units would never achieve more than mediocre results. It was his deathly fear that Western nations would find out about the better combat ability of some units and thus point out the inherent inequality in the communist system. The entire matter was really one of propaganda more than it was military.

I hope this has clarified some of your questions.

[Larsen]

I'm not sure where this information about the best units being punished came from. Never heard of anything like that. I would not say that it is not true but from my knowledge of the WWII from the Russian side I should say that it is highly unlikely.

There were units that one might consider elite. I mean the penalty battalions. The idea behind such an organization was that the officers and enlisted who were found guilty of cowardness or disobeying orders and who by the "laws of the war time" (this is a direct translation from Russian) should have been shot and the criminals of non-political nature servicing time in prisons were given a chance to clear everything off their name. They would be organized in battalions and those who would get wounded and servive the battle would be granted an amnestey. Usually such battalions had NKVD troops in rear who would shoot them if they would disobey orders. From what I heard this battalions would be used in assaults that were known to have upriory a high casualty level. These troops would attack with yelling curses instead of usuall "hurra!". They didn't have anything to loose and they were very dangerous.

Larsen

[Captain Wacky]

A thought it was pretty evident that my post was a joke. Guess I didn't make it obvious enough

[Michael Emrys]

Oh, it was pretty obvious. It didn't score very high on my personal laugh meter though. Better luck next time.

Michael

[PiggDogg]

Wacky,

I thought that your "success then die by NKVD" post was serious. You needed to make it more obvious by content and by: :eek: :eek: . That would have helped in making your intent obvious.

I was actually going to ask you for your sources.

Cheers, Richard

[Captain Wacky]

Well the whole point was to pull the wool over the Gpig's eyes, while everyone else winks knowingly. Smilies would have ruined my master plan...instead you guys blew it! I thought the whole premise was so ludicrous that it wouldn't even work in the first place. I guess I'll just beat it into your heads with a baseball bat next time

How in the world did these sentences not give it away?

"The unit in question would be formed up and its best soldiers shot as an example to all who would dare threaten the Soviet ideals of hegemony, poor quality, and thoughtlessness."

"The very thought of anyone out-performing anyone else and rewards based on merit went directly against the deepest communist fundamentals, so spectacular performances in combat were deemed illegal and counter-revolutionary."

"That way Stalin would be ensured that his units would never achieve more than mediocre results. It was his deathly fear that Western nations would find out about the better combat ability of some units and thus point out the inherent inequality in the communist system"

[ February 23, 2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

How in the world did these sentences not give it away?

"The unit in question would be formed up and its best soldiers shot as an example to all who would dare threaten the Soviet ideals of hegemony, poor quality, and thoughtlessness."

"The very thought of anyone out-performing anyone else and rewards based on merit went directly against the deepest communist fundamentals, so spectacular performances in combat were deemed illegal and counter-revolutionary."

"That way Stalin would be ensured that his units would never achieve more than mediocre results. It was his deathly fear that Western nations would find out about the better combat ability of some units and thus point out the inherent inequality in the communist system"

Well, the problem is that there are an abundance of numbskulls in the world that would take that as a pretty fair summation of the Soviet system. I may know that you are not among their number, but not everyone else who might happen to read it would necessarily share that insight. In any event, as I said before, all other considerations aside it isn't particularly humerous.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

I have to agree with Michael; it was well done Captain Wacky - much too well done. I was almost fooled, and realized that a lot of people would not realize you were joking.

It would be great for The Royal Onion, on the other hand, with suitable modifications....

[Gyrene]

Never, ever believe anything Capt. Wacky has to say. Never!

He's wacky after all.

Gyrene.

Oh, here: ->

[Patgod]

all the ones i'm gonna face

[Simon Fox]

What's the point of having a bit of fun if even the most credulous and least discerning are instantly in the know courtesy of a profusion of smilies.

If you were momentarily taken in and had to read it again to be sure then that makes it more amusing. I thought it was quite good Capt. please don't even consider using smilies next time.

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Simon Fox:

What's the point of having a bit of fun if even the most credulous and least discerning are instantly in the know courtesy of a profusion of smilies.

If you were momentarily taken in and had to read it again to be sure then that makes it more amusing. I thought it was quite good Capt. please don't even consider using smilies next time.

Roight straight! To everyone else: Get stoofed! There, are you happy?

[Grisha]

Guards units were pretty much kept up to strength. Soviet units that tended to perform poorly were rarely kept up to strength. In fact, Front commanders were given permission to devise their own TO&E for their Rifle divisions, which meant that poor divisions might only have 2 companies per battalion, and 2 platoons per company even.

Shock Armies were your Rifle Armies that were beefed up with lots of artillery and separate tank brigades/regiments(usually heavy tanks). Basically, the breakthrough element in the offensive. The Siberians were not special troops, just well equipped, fresh, and fully complemented. Morale was also a tad better among the Siberians in winter 1941.

Razvedchiki were the precursors of the Spetsnaz. However, this means they were never used in large numbers, but sent out instead on long range recon missions for either intelligence, combined operations with partisans, or special objectives. Most rifle and mechanized/motorized units had razvedchiki from battalion level up.

And yes, unit performance varied widely especially in the first period of the war. Many units were very poorly trained, but some were quite good - even amazingly so. Katukov's tank brigade(forget unit designation) fought with great elan in 1941(Katukov went on to command the 1st Guards Tank Corps, then the 1st Guards Tank Army). Even one of the hastely formed 'destroyer' divisions formed from civilians in Moskva fought so surprisingly well, that it was given Guards status in 1941/42. But generally, in 1941/42 Soviet units should be depicted as very eager to fight, but poorly trained.

I should add another point about Guards status. This was given due to exemplary performance in combat. Most Soviet units that performed well in combat were usually left alone for the simple reason that 'if it ain't broke, why fix it'. Thus, one could generally make the observation that Guards units were, in fact, better units than the average Soviet unit. Thus, Guards units should receive higher experience/morale levels in CMBB than the average Soviet unit. They may not be elite, but they were generally good enough to blunt the German juggernaut - even early on.

[Tanaka]

Hmm... I was pretty much sure I did a post on this topic; I even remember one answer to it… I must be going crazy