Quenaelin Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 There is more and more bugs in this game every time I play this game? Now this spotting thing, in my last game enemy gun suddenly disappears just to reappear in the end of turn. Turn before my tanks were shooting this AT-gun and then it suddenly disappears? Maybe gun was taking cover so my tanks didn't notice it I think this is a bug. This game thinks that gun is taking cover so it decreases spotting for that unit, but game engine doen't take concern that gun is still there and gun barrel is still very clearly to be seen, are AT-gun crew hiding gun barrel too, when they are taking cover? Now tank TacAI is as stupid as in CMBO before patch came out, they are rotating their turrets madly, if I don't setup cover arcs. Do I actually have to setup their cover arc to salvage them from stupidity? Why TacAI cannot be as clever as it was in CMBO and don't shoot infantry troops which are behind tank when tank is moving in fast speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 I also had enemy guns in LOS disappear for lets say 15 seconds, then re-appear again. Same with bunkers....... Im not shure its a bug, maybe a feature ? Monty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Quenaelin, This problem is inherent to the engine of CMBB : until units have got "memories", it won't change, that is not till the engine rewrite (in 2+ years) but u can avoid this annoying behaviour (for me too) by plotting an area fire order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Kernow Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Perhaps the tanks commander had only spoted the crews firing the gun? Perhaps the crew has only spoted the muzzle flash of the gun and therfore if it stops firing it losses spotting for it. Perhaps the game models crews pulling the gun back slightly in to cover. Perhaps you have a point though. If the tank crew has spoted the GUN itself, then the behaviour of the crew manning it is irrelevant. Guns often appear and disapear in and out of spotting., this has not been changed in 1.01 as I have not upgraded yet and I often observe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Originally posted by Cpt Kernow: Perhaps the tanks commander had only spoted the crews firing the gun? Perhaps the crew has only spoted the muzzle flash of the gun and therfore if it stops firing it losses spotting for it. Perhaps the game models crews pulling the gun back slightly in to cover. Perhaps you have a point though. If the tank crew has spoted the GUN itself, then the behaviour of the crew manning it is irrelevant. Guns often appear and disapear in and out of spotting., this has not been changed in 1.01 as I have not upgraded yet and I often observe it.Your first three points are pretty much spot on as I understand the model. This has often happened to me in 1.0, and has been in the game since beta days. You will also note that smaller guns take longer to be spotted than bigger guns (in general), which has to do with the signature when firing (much easier to spot a 12.8cm gun firing at long distance than a 3.7cm one). Why this should be a problem is a bit beyond me - you just order area fire on the last point where you spotted the gun with HE, and that'll sort it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenaelin Posted November 25, 2002 Author Share Posted November 25, 2002 My four tanks were hammering this AT-gun in previous turn, almost whole turn. Now next turn, AT-gun appears and then five seconds later it disappears, so my tanks stop firing becouse they dont see the damn thing anymore, AT-gun is taking cover so it cannot be seen, it must be like that, otherwise I cannot explain it. Yes, It would be more easier to just command area fire to location of AT-gun and then cancel it after gun is destroyed. Why not to increase spotting visibility of AT-guns when crew is taking cover, it isn't very realistic to decrease spotting visibility of AT-gun when crew is just taking cover. I don't remember this spotting bug happening in CMBO, if AT-gun was spotted it didn't suddenly disappear again in the next turn after hammering it one turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Well, I guess you found a game improvement then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 It isn't a bug, it's a design decision. You can love it or hate it, but that doesn't make it a bug. Personally, I love it - it increases gun surviveability and fits what first-hand accounts of tank battles vs. Pak-Fronts that I've read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenaelin Posted November 27, 2002 Author Share Posted November 27, 2002 So, this disappearing gun simulates something I don't know, something you have been reading, can somebody clarify this little bit. AT-guns were just disappearing in the WWII battles in the gun smoke or perhaps mistaken to something else and tank commander was yelling "Oh, it is just a old rotening log in the open field which is accidentally pointing to us, don't bother to shoot it anymore". To make AT-guns more tougher when under fire, why not to make them more durable when crew is taking cover, so they can take beating much more, but hiding them when crew is taking cover isn't very realistic solution to AT-guns survivability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankgunner Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Originally posted by Quenaelin: So, this disappearing gun simulates something I don't know, something you have been reading, can somebody clarify this little bit. I think that's all right with diappeaing guns. When tank fired at gun, it may be suppressed - i.e. it's crew is pinned, no shots are fired. But the tank crew DON'T now that the gun is not actually knocked out. They can't spot the crew, they see the gun which is not firing - so they decide to aim at different target.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 No, what happens here is that the tank thinks it has killed the AT gun in the previous turn. If you want to make sure you order area fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 That's a "feature" of the current engine, units don't remember "oh this immbile unit was at this spot, it's surely still there !" And there's no relative spotting either ... So ANY unit blink in/out sight according to exposure and conditions of ALL spotters (that is the gun can remain visible if the tank buttons up but an infantry unit is near, but will if the tank is alone...). It's somewhat abnormal but not "buggy", and can be solved by Area fire. As for turret-swinging it's the same thing that with CMBO, but now Cover Arc are available !! BTW, if a tank has an Armor CA, does it react to AT gun fire ? :confused: It should ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenaelin Posted November 27, 2002 Author Share Posted November 27, 2002 I noticed this turret swinging was same as in CMBO, I remembered it was patched somehow in CMBO but not completely, my mistake. I got four tanks shooting and spotting this one AT-gun and still it disappeared, it would be more realistic if AT-guns would be markered "perhaps knocked out or taking cover?" if tank commander or spotters cannot be sure if gun operational or not, disappearing isn't very good solution to this. [ November 27, 2002, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 An interesting post that was concerning at first but redwolf made a great comment about the situation where a tank crew "thinks" they have possibly killed/KOed the AT gun and therefore stop shooting (in this case, "losing sight" of the AT gun). I would not think it too easy to determine if an AT gun has been KOed (ie routed crew, gun inoperable etc) from the ranges at typical engagement distances. Perhaps there should even be a "death clock" for AT guns. Throw in the possibility that dust and smoke may be blocking LOS, you can possibly justify this behaviour of losing sight of an AT gun when the crew get pinned and cease firing. Perhaps you can consider this a mini rout, where the crew are about to flee but then compose themselves and return to operate the gun. Remember that it is always possible to area fire at the location of the AT gun, just to be sure, after at the most, 1 minute of action. I like the new changes that make AT guns more survivable. The system is not perfect, but there is enough there for me to rationally fill in the gaps. Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Quenaelin, What you fail to realize is that CM is taking into account the fact that camouflage is being used. A well camouflagued gun will never really be seen. The only thing that your tanks would see is muzzle flash and a puff of smoke coming from the gun when it fires, everything else looks like trees and brush. Therefore, when your tanks were firing at the gun, the gun took cover. When a unit takes cover it is harder to see. When your tanks couldn't see the target anymore, they stopped firing. The simple solution to this is to fire at the suspected area, i.e. target the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Area target is only so good. First, it is not as effective as firing directly on the enemy unit. Second, the unit will keep firing the entire round, when often just a shell or two would have been enough. This is especially important for tanks with a small amount of ammo. Third, if the gun reappears, the tank might not cancel the area target and fire at the actual enemy. I would suggest as solution that you should be able to target the generic markers (the red stars or german crosses). If the marker is spotted and the enemy again is seen the tank would automatically retarget on the actual enemy. Or, if the area is spotted and the enemy has disappeared/died, the tank would cancel its fire order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Originally posted by Quenaelin: I noticed this turret swinging was same as in CMBO, I remembered it was patched somehow in CMBO but not completely, my mistake. I got four tanks shooting and spotting this one AT-gun and still it disappeared, it would be more realistic if AT-guns would be markered "perhaps knocked out or taking cover?" if tank commander or spotters cannot be sure if gun operational or not, disappearing isn't very good solution to this.Ok try this... Go out in the woods with a piece of stove pipe. Paint said stove pipe camo-pattern and put leaves and branches over it. Have a friend hide with stove pipe armed with a bag of flour and baseball bat. Get in a car with a sunroof. Drive past area with stove pipe at about 15-20km/h. Have friend wack bag of flour with baseball bat. You will see flour but can you see the stove pipe? Now imagine large piece of steel coming at you (this can be simulated by having another friend fire a BB gun at you in the car, WEAR EYE PROTECTION)...see the stove pipe? Maybe for instant but now BBs are bouncing off your head....oh ya stay up for 48 hrs straight before doing this. Now you have a very slim idea of what the game is trying to simulate. A hidden gun is incredibly hard to find..CMBB is far too generous in spotting guns and killing them, this process took a lot of time..entire 30 min games would be wasted trying to find the damn little buggers. Area fire is not only effective it is realistic. We know there is a gun in the woodline..blast it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 In a way there is a death clock for guns. They go out of LOS and you don't know whether you killed them or not. The spotting in CMBB has one oddity I don't like: when changing from unbuttoned to buttoned the tanks often lose sight of something the commander already spotted from the outside. No competent tank command would be unable to find something again which he already spotted and looked at a few seconds before, except maybe something very fast-moving like an airplane or when the tank itself is racing around and turning the turret at the same time. But under any normal circumstances the commander will find the same item with no problems. This is probably a problem of TacAI having no memory, but then it isn't that much memory required either. I have no doubt that spotting something actually new from the inside is much more difficult, I spent some time in a standing tank and could use some of the sights, and that was even a more modern tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 The spotting in CMBB has one oddity I don't like: when changing from unbuttoned to buttoned the tanks often lose sight of something the commander already spotted from the outside. No competent tank command would be unable to find something again which he already spotted and looked at a few seconds before, except maybe something very fast-moving like an airplane or when the tank itself is racing around and turning the turret at the same time. But under any normal circumstances the commander will find the same item with no problems. This is probably a problem of TacAI having no memory, but then it isn't that much memory required either. The probable culprit is lack of a vision cupola. Not all tanks have them, and in my experience it is primarily those which DON'T that have this problem. In fact, I primarily notice it with T-34s, where the issue may also be that the commander is also the gunner and is now trying to bring the target into the gunsight - and if he doesn't find it quickly, he may not find it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Also, if you have ever looked at something with the naked eye, then tried to find it through binoculars, or vice versa, its not always as easy as it might seem. Add to that, being shot at, bumping along, etc., and going from unbuttoned to buttoned definitely doesn't mean immediate reacquisition of whatever you had spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizee Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 Originally posted by Pak40: Quenaelin, What you fail to realize is that CM is taking into account the fact that camouflage is being used. A well camouflagued gun will never really be seen. The only thing that your tanks would see is muzzle flash and a puff of smoke coming from the gun when it fires, everything else looks like trees and brush. Therefore, when your tanks were firing at the gun, the gun took cover. When a unit takes cover it is harder to see. When your tanks couldn't see the target anymore, they stopped firing. The simple solution to this is to fire at the suspected area, i.e. target the ground.and this guy is ment to know ffs!!! look at his nick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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