T34

[tom5172]

Am I right in thinking that the T34 was first encountered in 1942? My problem is I almost always play as the Axis and I’m having nightmares about coming across it early as the MBT of the German was the Panzer MKIII with it’s puny 50mm main gun.

Also I believe the Panzer MK VI was introduced in 1942, does anyone know how may were sent to the Eastern Front?

[WWB]

T34s were in use on 22 June 41. There is some debate as to when they were first encountered, but it was no later than 1 July in any case. If you think you got it bad with 50mm armed Panzer IIIs, remember that in many cases the heviest AT weapon avaliable was 37mm. Also keep in mind that Panzer IIIs were nearly the majority of german tanks used at Kursk in July of 43.

Panzer IVs were introduced in 38 or so, IIRC. They were in use in 41 with a short infantry howitzer (same gun as is on the 75mm SPWs). Upgunned models (like the ones in CMBO) started appearing in the spring and summer of 42.

WWB

[Pzman]

We also have to remember that in many cases the T-34s had very low numbers of AP and HE rounds early in the war, due to amo shortages, this was caused by the Germans over running the forward Soviet amo and fuel dumps. The Germans just waited for them to run out of amo, or in many cases out of fuel, and then attacked them. But because CM doesn't model fuel, this will not be as simple to do.

[ August 31, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[zukkov]

i wouldn't worry too much about the t34s in 41. they were there, but i believe the t26's and bt's were the most common tank germans encountered during the first months of the war. isn't that right??

[Pzman]

It wasn't till early/mid 1942 before the T-34 appeared in numbers to worry about. T-26 was the most numberus tank in the Red Army at the time, and they suffered from being as poorly armored, and armed, a 37mm gun, IIRC, but like the T-34 and all Russian tanks they were even more handycap because of fuel and amo shortages.

[ August 31, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[Mattias]

I don't know what your sources are or what your definition of "worry" is but I can tell you that reading German divisional war diaries gives quite a different picture.

It is true that the most common armoured opponents were tanks and AC's of inferior capability when compared to the Pz III and IV but the modern Soviet tanks were most certainly a cause of considerable worries in 1941, and indeed downright alarm in a great many cases.

Try asking 4th Panzer Division how they felt about it in October 41 for example...

M.

[ August 31, 2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Gud]

T-34 entered service in 1940 IIRC. It (and KW) were world's best tanks in 1941, period. Luckily for Germans, the Soviets hopelessly dispersed them along the front, mixing these capable tanks with "damn fast but thin skinned" BT's "pretty slow and thin skinned" T-26 and "Damn slow and damn unrealiable" T-28 (BTW is it in ??).

[Commissar]

Originally posted by zukkov:

i wouldn't worry too much about the t34s in 41. they were there, but i believe the t26's and bt's were the most common tank germans encountered during the first months of the war. isn't that right??

Not to mention also that most T-34 crews were not very proficient in operating their tanks. Transmissions were pretty bad as well. Some T-34s left the factory with a spare transmission strapped to the deck to replace the one that would soon break. At the start of Barbarossa, their were few T-34s and training of the tank crews on them was pretty crappy. However, they certainly earned a ferocious reputation when the Germans did meet them. In the hands of a competent tank crew, the T-34 can do some serious damage. Initially, the German military leadership just wanted to copy the T-34 directly for their own forces, but Hitler would have none of that. After all, a direct copy of the T34 for German forces would mean the "sub-human" Slavs actually had a superior design. Consequently, the Germans would have to wait for the Panther to be developed and deployed.

[zukkov]

when i said don't worry, i was talking to the russians. lol...

[Jaakko]

As a curious tidbit, during the Winter War (March '40) one of the first two T-34s built was sent for combat trials against Finnish troops in the Karelia Peninsula, but it arrived slightly too late to take any part in the war.

[Grisha]

By July-August of 1941 Soviet tanks were not a big concern for German panzers. What was a concern were Soviet AT units. Since the 45mm AT gun wasn't even in production when Barbarossa started, AT units had no 45mm AT guns, but instead were being equipped with 76mm and 85mm guns. Expect losses, maybe even heavy losses, as the German armor commander if you run into a Soviet AT defense in summer-fall 1941.

[Cpl Carrot]

Both BT's and T-26's had the 45mm gun. Good enough to take on any German tank out there (I think)

[MikeT]

Cpl Carrot, the problem with the Soviet use of armor was that it was crude and uninspired. It seems that many were simply dug in and used as expensive and self-deploying bunkers. The Germans relied on shock and movement to destroy them.

But you are right about Soviet armor. It was fairly good armament wise. Down side is that armor was thin, few to no radios, add to that poor crews and poor COs and you have burning tanks as a result.

MikeT

[tom5172]

Oh dear 1941 eh? The T34 may have only been in small numbers then but I have read about the first time it was encountered by the Germans and it almost wiped out a German formation. I also read the Gedarian encountered it and it took a while before they were able to knock the damn things out. I almost forgot about the KV1 (that is a bigger nightmare), granted it was slow but only a shot to the side or rear could knock it out. Does anyone know when the Tiger was introduced in the east and in what quantities? I know a few were sent to Rommel in 41.

Dealing with the good old ronson or better still, Tommy Cooker was easy in the west at least you were sure that almost every anti-armour weapon in your arsenal could penetrate it. Just thinking of those Russian tanks & TDs is causing me a lot of stress. My main worries in the east are the JSI & II, T34-85 and the SU100. Any info on these will be helpful.

Originally posted by wwb_99:

T34s were in use on 22 June 41. There is some debate as to when they were first encountered, but it was no later than 1 July in any case. If you think you got it bad with 50mm armed Panzer IIIs, remember that in many cases the heviest AT weapon avaliable was 37mm. Also keep in mind that Panzer IIIs were nearly the majority of german tanks used at Kursk in July of 43.

Panzer IVs were introduced in 38 or so, IIRC. They were in use in 41 with a short infantry howitzer (same gun as is on the 75mm SPWs). Upgunned models (like the ones in CMBO) started appearing in the spring and summer of 42.

WWB

[TSword]

Tom,

First Tiger I were introduced (and bad chosen) at the Leningrad front (Heeresgruppe Nord) in August 1942 to support the taking of Leningrad (How stupid, such a tank in the muddy and forested terrain there...). First Platoon of 1./502(4 Tigers) arrived on 29. August 1942. The first engagment was on 16. Sept. 1942 at Lake Ladoga facing enemy Inf and artillery. Crews were very impressed by the firepower. Second attack was not very succesful due to bad terrain (and prob. bad recon before) 3 Tigers had damaged guns. One Tiger brewed up and was a total loss.

Other Formation in 1942 was Abt. 501 in Tunisia. First 3 Tigers were unloaded at Bizerte on 23. November. 18 Tigers in Total up to 24. January 1943. The Tigers went into action almost immediately as they arrived. One of these is now in the Bovington Tank museum and restored to driving condition (Although the "new" engine exploded..).

Starting 1943 (Feb.) all three SS-units: LAH, Das Reich and Totenkopf received a 13th Company of Tiger I aswell as GrossDeutschland and some idependent Abteilungen like 503 (Heeresgruppe-South). In May Abt. 505 followed assigned to Heeresgruppe-Mitte.

At Kursk (Operation Zitadelle) Abt. 505, 503 plus 4 Companies for LAH, DR, Tot & GD took part = 133 Tanks. During the operation 14 replacements arrived. Total writeoffs 5.7. - 20.7 = 13

Greets

Daniel

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by zukkov:

i wouldn't worry too much about the t34s in 41. they were there, but i believe the t26's and bt's were the most common tank germans encountered during the first months of the war.

That's sort of like saying the USSR only had 5000 nukes, it was the AK 47s you REALLY had to worry about . . .

[sturmtiger101]

Hey TS,

That Bovington Tiger I is actually from s/504, the only other unit to send Tigers to North Africa. It is vehicle # 131, and was captured in April of '43 after an encounter w/ Churchill tanks. There is a surviving Tiger I from s/501, however, and it was found abandoned at the end of the Tunisian campaign and captured by the U S Army. This vehicle was at Aberdeen Proving Grounds until the mid 80's when it was given back to Germany on a ten year loan for display at their Munster ( or was it Sineschiem (sp) ? ) facility. Anyone here know what's become of this tank today? Last I heard it was in the UK for restification by a private firm...

Cheers,

Eric Tuggle

[Andreas]

Any incident that I came across in German records where either T34 or KV1/2 were encountered in the early stages created a crisis. 1. PD's GHQ almost overrun near Rossienie (Rasenai), the heavies only stopped by 88s and 10cm K18. The famous incident of the lone KV blocking the supply route of KG Raus (6.PD). 13. PD stopped dead in its tracks early on in Ukraine during the counter-attacks by the Soviet 5th Army (can't find the source now). On the tactical (CMBB) scale, these tanks are a serious headache. As they were in reality.

[JasonC]

A minor correction to wwb-99's comments - Pz IIIs plus short 75mm vehicles were only about 1/3rd of the fleet by the time of Kursk, not "most" of it.

1/2 the fleet were long 75mm by then, mostly Pz IVs plus some StuGs and Marders. The last 1/6 were the new heavy gun types - Panthers, Tigers, Elephants, and Nashorns. The old 1/3 of the fleet had a mix of short 75mm (late III and early IV) and 50mm (mixed long and short but mostly long, on IIIs).

In was really in 1942 that the Panzer fleet consisted mostly of IIIs with a mix of long and short 50s, with the long 75 vehicles just coming in (Marders, Pz IVF2 and G, and the first long 75 StuG). By Kursk, the mean of the distribution had moved over to 75 long Pz IVs and StuGs.

Which with 80mm front hull armor and higher velocity guns, were somewhat better than the Russian T-34/76s. The heavies were relatively rare but certainly outclassed the Russian KVs and SUs. The mean quality of the German fleet thus passed that of the Russians during the pause between Stalingrad and Kursk.

For what it is worth.

[tom5172]

Have just encountered the T34 in the demo and it was every bit of the nightmare I expected. Had better luck dealing with the KV1 though.

[WWB]

Jason, I just looked over my refernce, you are quite right for AG South. For AG Center the story is more interesting. It is about a third long-gunned Panzers, a third Panzer III longs and two-fifths "old." Old means Panzer IIs and 38ts, and short-gunned IIIs and IVs.

Tom, that T34 incident you are speaking of did not involve a T34. It was a KV that blocked the advance for a day or three. And when the shermans arrived in late 42, they were quite the tank. For that year's standard, they were quite well armored and armed.

WWB

[Commissar]

Originally posted by tom5172:

My main worries in the east are the JSI & II, T34-85 and the SU100. Any info on these will be helpful.

If you are interested in learning more about Soviet armor and other equipment you may be interested in getting The Red Army Handbook by Zaloga. This book is also one of the reference books that BFC uses. You may also want to check out The Russian Battlefield as it has a lot of information on the Red Army and it's equipment. It will also give you the Soviet impressions of the Tiger as well.

[tom5172]

thanks Commissar, the info was really helpful.

[Guest Mike]

Grisha where did yuo get teh idea that the Russians were making do with 37mm AT guns in 1941?

They got a few copies of the erman 37, but never produced it as they decided it was underpowered. they had plenty of 45's in 41 - and they were jsut introducing the 57mm because they thought the German tanks were going to be heavier armoured than they were.

They stopped producing the 57 until 43 because the 45 could deal with the German armour of 1941!!

also there were about 1100 T34's produced prior to 21 June 1941 - not exactly "a few".

However they were dispersed in penny packets, amny weer not running, etc.