Replacement command for the CMBO "Sneak" Command?

[Pak40]

This topic started in another thread but it warrents it's own.

A bunch of us are wondering what is the correct command to use for moving units around the board with stealth.

The CMBB sneak command is now a blend of the 'crawl' and 'sneak' commands in CMBO but it is too slow and the soldiers are prone.

'Move to Contact' doesn't help much because any enemy unit that is seen will stop your unit.

'Move' seems the same as CMBO where your unit will fire as they move, unless I'm incorrect.

So what is the correct way to move effectively without your units firing? Also, does the HQ Stealth bonus only apply to units moving in "sneak" like in CMBO?

[russellmz]

Originally posted by Pak40:

This topic started in another thread but it warrents it's own.

A bunch of us are wondering what is the correct command to use for moving units around the board with stealth.

The CMBB sneak command is now a blend of the 'crawl' and 'sneak' commands in CMBO but it is too slow and the soldiers are prone.

'Move to Contact' doesn't help much because any enemy unit that is seen will stop your unit.

'Move' seems the same as CMBO where your unit will fire as they move, unless I'm incorrect.

So what is the correct way to move effectively without your units firing? Also, does the HQ Stealth bonus only apply to units moving in "sneak" like in CMBO?

move to contact with a hide at the end?

[Eric Alkema]

Oo Oo! I know this one! Set a cover arc at a range short enough that they will only shoot at enemy that they stumble into. Your movement method can be whatever you want depending on how fast/stealthy you want to be.

[Sabrewolf]

um try not to use fast with short cover acr, you'll give away your position, exhausted your men, get cut down by MG and unable to return fire due to short cover arc

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Pak40:

This topic started in another thread but it warrents it's own.

A bunch of us are wondering what is the correct command to use for moving units around the board with stealth.

The CMBB sneak command is now a blend of the 'crawl' and 'sneak' commands in CMBO but it is too slow and the soldiers are prone.

'Move to Contact' doesn't help much because any enemy unit that is seen will stop your unit.

'Move' seems the same as CMBO where your unit will fire as they move, unless I'm incorrect.

So what is the correct way to move effectively without your units firing? Also, does the HQ Stealth bonus only apply to units moving in "sneak" like in CMBO?

those are good questions

-tom w

[Pak40]

Originally posted by russellmz:

move to contact with a hide at the end?

Sorry, this wont work because the unit's movement will stop as soon as it sees an enemy unit, no matter how far away the enemy unit is. Often you want want your guys to sneak past known and visible enemy locations and the Move to Contact command will not work in this context.

Oo Oo! I know this one! Set a cover arc at a range short enough that they will only shoot at enemy that they stumble into. Your movement method can be whatever you want depending on how fast/stealthy you want to be.

This seems workable but it's an awful lot of micromanagement for wanting units to "not fire while they move". Cover arcs have to be set for each unit since there is no "group cover arc command". This can be quite tedious when trying to order several dozen units to sneak. Also, you may have to readjust the cover arcs once in a while so that your unit will respond to a close threat.

I just wish they'd bring back the old "sneak" command. What exactly was wrong with it that made them decide to make it a slower movement rate? I never heard anyone complain that the "sneak" command was too fast in CMBO

[ September 26, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Pak40 ]

[Michael Emrys]

The concept of trying to "sneak several dozen units" kind of boggles my mind. Yes, I can imagine situations where that might be appropriate, just not too many. And I wouldn't have expected them to come up quite this soon. But then, what do I know? Maybe somebody has been dreaming of this moment for months...

Michael

[Kwazydog]

Pak, it was a while ago that we discussed the sneak command internally, but IIRC this was what we came up with...

In CMBO sneak was more of a move cautiously command that had some effect of concealing troops but not to a great extent. Basically it did what the move command does now.

In CMBB the sneak command is slower, but it does conceal your troops more, making it a true sneak as such. Using sneak troops will make the best possible use of cover and concealment, making them quite harder to spot. Think of them as crawling behind a wall or jumping from hiding spot to hiding spot.

Im pretty sure that was the reasoning behind the change.

Dan

[ September 26, 2002, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The concept of trying to "sneak several dozen units" kind of boggles my mind. Yes, I can imagine situations where that might be appropriate, just not too many. And I wouldn't have expected them to come up quite this soon. But then, what do I know? Maybe somebody has been dreaming of this moment for months...

When I'm on the attack, in the beginning of the battle, I will often use the sneak command with most of my units if I feel a 'walk' or 'run' will give away their position. Although the defender will eventually detect where the bulk of my attack is coming from, it is best to keep him guessing for as long as possible. In the end, he'll have less time to readjust his defenses against my attacking focal point.

[Eden Smallwood]

I also found that BB:sneak seems to exhaust the troops very severely, to the point that I think they are literally trying to crawl across Russia... I really want them to "exercise all reasonable caution in attempting to arrive at point B undetected".

Also, Move To Contact I have found not as useful as I hoped- I want my T34 to advance around the bend just until it sees PanzerMan; But T34 doesn't go anywhere- what happened? Oh! There's a routed crew guy over there!!!

Similarly, the Scoot 'n' Shoot disappoints me. Sorry if this all sounds neg- of course it is a wonderful game. But my intention as commander in giving an SnS command is that Tank should advance just until something to shoot, then shoot, then reverse. So it is really a combo of MoveToContact and SnS as it exists now... but you just can't get it to work that way. See what I mean? You either guess how far perfectly, or Tank advances past point of contact, or never reaches point of contact in existing ShootScoot...

If MoveToContact took as a parameter a specific unit and/or type of unit, and then ShootScoot were an embellishment of MTC...

Ahhhhh... dream, dream.

Eden

[Guest Panzer Boxb]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

Also, Move To Contact I have found not as useful as I hoped- I want my T34 to advance around the bend just until it sees PanzerMan; But T34 doesn't go anywhere- what happened? Oh! There's a routed crew guy over there!!!

I would think setting an Armored Cover Arc and using hunt would do the job quite nicely in this situation. Maybe.

[Sabrewolf]

I usually uses shoot and scoot on a known enemy position, very useful when attacking a convoy of tanks looking at the wrong direction cause they will never figure out what hit them.

As for waiting for something to come to view > shoot then reverse out of view I don't find it useful at all cause you have the initial advantage of better targeting since you are shooting while standing still. If the enemy tank is much more powerful usually the AI will pull back your tank automatically anyway.

[aka_tom_w]

great thread

[Boo Radley]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

In CMBO sneak was more of a move cautiously command that had some effect of concealing troops but not to a great extent. Basically it did what the move command does now.

In CMBB the sneak command is slower, but it does conceal your troops more, making it a true sneak as such. Using sneak troops will make the best possible use of cover and concealment, making them quite harder to spot. Think of them as crawling behind a wall or jumping from hiding spot to hiding spot.

Dan

OK, so now in CMBB, "Move" is more like "Sneak" in CMBO and "Sneak" in CMBB is a type of "Super Sneak"? Is that right?

I would've thought that it would make more sense to just augment the CMBO "Sneak" (slow it down and up the stealth value) and leave it separate from "Crawl".

[Pak40]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

In CMBO sneak was more of a move cautiously command that had some effect of concealing troops but not to a great extent. Basically it did what the move command does now.

In CMBB the sneak command is slower, but it does conceal your troops more, making it a true sneak as such. Using sneak troops will make the best possible use of cover and concealment, making them quite harder to spot. Think of them as crawling behind a wall or jumping from hiding spot to hiding spot.

Thanks for responding, Dan.

So does this mean that the "Move" command in CMBB keeps your units from firing when it sees an enemy unit in the distance?

Another problem that someone else mentioned on this thread is that troops seem to get exhausted a lot quicker using the CMBB "sneak" command. Therefore, it can only be used in short distances effectively.

I think we're all looking for a command that lets units move at about walking speed and they do not fire unless they come within 50 meters of a threatening enemy unit. If the CMBB "Move" command does this then I think we will all be content.

[Hans]

Four thoughts

1. A RECCE command that combines stealthy movement with a "no fire mode" unless you are caught at short range and no cover exists. This would allow you to move units that wouldn't fire at units they spotted.

2. A TRANSIT command in which you move between two points maximizing cover and concealment and a "no fire mode".

3. A DISMOUNTED move in which a vehicle would follow slowly behind the vehicle commander who would be on foot, again maximizing cover and concealment. (This probably would need support of the CM II engine rewrite)The crew would be manning any small arms/MGs

4. A SASHAY command in which 5% of the units could move in an odd way, regaining morale.

[Fly Pusher]

Thanks for the response Kwazy

But, what was the reason for changing the sneak command at all ? Was there something wrong with the way it was ?

I for one quite liked the old CM:BO sneak. It used to be my main infantry movement command. And now its gone..... -sob- -sob-.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Pak40:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KwazyDog:

In CMBO sneak was more of a move cautiously command that had some effect of concealing troops but not to a great extent. Basically it did what the move command does now.

In CMBB the sneak command is slower, but it does conceal your troops more, making it a true sneak as such. Using sneak troops will make the best possible use of cover and concealment, making them quite harder to spot. Think of them as crawling behind a wall or jumping from hiding spot to hiding spot.

Thanks for responding, Dan.

So does this mean that the "Move" command in CMBB keeps your units from firing when it sees an enemy unit in the distance?

Another problem that someone else mentioned on this thread is that troops seem to get exhausted a lot quicker using the CMBB "sneak" command. Therefore, it can only be used in short distances effectively.

I think we're all looking for a command that lets units move at about walking speed and they do not fire unless they come within 50 meters of a threatening enemy unit. If the CMBB "Move" command does this then I think we will all be content.</font>

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Pak40:

I think we're all looking for a command that lets units move at about walking speed and they do not fire unless they come within 50 meters of a threatening enemy unit. If the CMBB "Move" command does this then I think we will all be content.[/QB]

"Move" and "cover arc" at 50m?

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Hans:

Four thoughts

1. A RECCE command that combines stealthy movement with a "no fire mode" unless you are caught at short range and no cover exists. This would allow you to move units that wouldn't fire at units they spotted.

2. A TRANSIT command in which you move between two points maximizing cover and concealment and a "no fire mode".

3. A DISMOUNTED move in which a vehicle would follow slowly behind the vehicle commander who would be on foot, again maximizing cover and concealment. (This probably would need support of the CM II engine rewrite)The crew would be manning any small arms/MGs

4. A SASHAY command in which 5% of the units could move in an odd way, regaining morale.

for this one

"1. A RECCE command that combines stealthy movement with a "no fire mode" unless you are caught at short range and no cover exists. This would allow you to move units that wouldn't fire at units they spotted"

Why not use MTC Move to Contact with a 5 meter cover arc Inf the ful 180 degrees to the front of the units.

the unit would then NOT fire and stop the when they first spot a threat?

NO?

Am I missing something here?

-tom w

[Hans]

I don't have the game until tomorrow (ggrrrrh) so I have no way of knowing about arc except in theory of course!

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Hans:

I don't have the game until tomorrow (ggrrrrh) so I have no way of knowing about arc except in theory of course!

The cover arc is in the demo and you can "practice" there and see its effects. I think.

-tom w

[Dirtweasle]

So long as the move command is now as stealthy as sneak used to be, the only thing we need to figure out is how to get the unit to not pop off a round at targets and reveal it's position.

Has anyone tested that a hide command at the end does this? It has been suggested that it would work with the mve to contact. What about with MOVE?

Could a "HOLD FIRE" button be added?

Someone commented that they thought sneaking several units was unrealisitc. I think walking and making noise in the presence of the enemy, or where enemy is supected to be operating, is a bit unrealistic.

Why is keeping quiet and sneaking into position unrealistic? I don't understand. Surely you can't telegraph where you are going to go to the enemy. :confused:

[ September 27, 2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Dirtweasle ]

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hans:

Four thoughts

1. A RECCE command that combines stealthy movement with a "no fire mode" unless you are caught at short range and no cover exists. This would allow you to move units that wouldn't fire at units they spotted.

2. A TRANSIT command in which you move between two points maximizing cover and concealment and a "no fire mode".

3. A DISMOUNTED move in which a vehicle would follow slowly behind the vehicle commander who would be on foot, again maximizing cover and concealment. (This probably would need support of the CM II engine rewrite)The crew would be manning any small arms/MGs

4. A SASHAY command in which 5% of the units could move in an odd way, regaining morale.

for this one

"1. A RECCE command that combines stealthy movement with a "no fire mode" unless you are caught at short range and no cover exists. This would allow you to move units that wouldn't fire at units they spotted"

Why not use MTC Move to Contact with a 5 meter cover arc Inf the ful 180 degrees to the front of the units.

the unit would then NOT fire and stop the when they first spot a threat?

NO?

Am I missing something here?

-tom w</font>

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

So long as the move command is now as stealthy as sneak used to be, the only thing we need to figure out is how to get the unit to not pop off a round at targets and reveal it's position.

Has anyone tested that a hide command at the end does this? It has been suggested that it would work with the mve to contact. What about with MOVE?

Could a "HOLD FIRE" button be added?

Someone commented that they thought sneaking several units was unrealisitc. I think walking and making noise in the presence of the enemy, or where enemy is supected to be operating, is a bit unrealistic.

Why is keeping quiet and sneaking into position unrealistic? I don't understand. Surely you can't telegraph where you are going to go to the enemy. :confused:

just use move and a 5 meter cover arc inf. ???

isn't that the same thing, now as Sneak?

If they are experienced they won't shoot past their 5 meter limit?

:confused:

-tom w

[ September 27, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]