Replacement command for the CMBO "Sneak" Command?

[Boo Radley]

Bottom line - I want to move my men as stealthily as possible, without drawing attention to myself by firing at anyone who might show up a couple hundred meters away, I now have to use "Move" with a very short cover arc? Seems like a step backwards to me.

[Eric Alkema]

Why is it that Tom W and others have answered "use a covered arc" several times and yet people keep asking how to keep their troops from firing at long range? Granted that it is some extra work but you only have to do it once per unit (unless you change direction). The price you pay for better control.

[Dirtweasle]

How is it better control? I admit it is different and more mouse work, but better? I guess that depends upon perspective. In my opinion some form of "MOVE STEALTHY, but not CRAWLING" with a hard "HOLD FIRE" toggle would be ideal.

KwazyDog said, "...In CMBO sneak was more of a move cautiously command that had some effect of concealing troops but not to a great extent. Basically it did what the move command does now."

OK, I'm just trying to confirm I understand correctly, because the audio/oral feedback from in game I am hearing is troops making noise and such. It doe snot seem to me to be stealthy.

[REVS]

Having only played the Demo so far (waiting patiently and getting on with life until the package arrives) and regretting the loss of the good old Sneak command, it occurred to me that the designers may have broken the old rule: "If it aint broke, don't fix it"

They went ahead and fixed Sneak anyway, when it wasn't broke.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Hans:

Four thoughts

4. A SASHAY command in which 5% of the units could move in an odd way, regaining morale.

What, no PIMP STRUT command? No opportunity to show off your captured fascist Bling Bling?!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by REVS:

...it occurred to me that the designers may have broken the old rule: "If it aint broke, don't fix it"

They went ahead and fixed Sneak anyway, when it wasn't broke.

As I recall it, the MtC command was introduced in response to many loud complaints that Sneak was in fact broken, to wit that it allowed your units to move right past enemy units that they encountered. This usually eventuated in their annihilation. MtC takes care of that problem.

As far as the present Sneak command goes, so far it appears to me that it is merely a renaming of the Crawl command, although there may have been some tweaks to it that haven't shown up in my play as yet.

I have to confess that I never used Sneak all that much in CMBO, only when in covering terrain where contact with the enemy was expected to be imminent and I wanted them to hold their fire. One reason was because they moved so slowly. The other was that I tended to move them in short bounds anyway.

The Crawl command I used even more rarely, usually when I had a high value unit that I wanted to move in view of the enemy, especially if it was one that couldn't run.

Michael

[Boo Radley]

I may have used "crawl" once or twice, but I used "sneak" quite a bit. I'd use it to move a F/O to the edge of a treeline. I'd use it to move my troops through woods with the hopes that by doing so, I wouldn't get any arty rained on me. I never had a problem running into enemy troops who'd then get the drop on me.

Hey, if "move" now does what "sneak" used to, that's cool with me. I'll use the shortened cover arc command.

I'd just like to have something LIKE the old "sneak" command.

[KiwiJoe]

Sneak was my most used infantry command in CMBO. Units moving through cover firing at random distant targets would be a real problem for me in CMBB. I would have thought just adding a "sneak to contact" command would have fixed any issues people had with the CMBO commands.

This command would stop your troops and make them return fire if fired upon inside 50m ,and/or stop and return fire if fired upon by a firepower rating of greater than say 50-75.

Thus:

Run

Assualt

Advance

Human wave (Russians)

Move

Sneak

Sneak to contact

Crawl

Retreat

[Pak40]

The problems with using Cover Arc and Move to achieve a simulated "sneak":

1) It's too tedious to have to set a bunch of cover arcs when it would be simple enough to use the CMBO SNEAK command. Batallion sized engagements have dozens of infantry units and more if you split squads. It is a hell of a chore to have to set cover arcs for all of them. As Boo_Radley said in a previous post, this is a step backwards.

2) A common problem with the cover arc is that people tend to forget that certain units were previously issued cover arcs. When the dymanics of a battle change, you may be wondering why your units arn't firing at the enemy units 100m away in the clear open -- then you'll realize that you set a 15m cover arc 5 or 10 turns ago. That's wasted time that your units could have been delivering deadly kills.

Kwazydog previously stated that the MOVE command now pretty much acts as the SNEAK command in CMBO. After all, there must be some sort of differece between MOVE and ADVANCE. We shall test it out and see the results.

[akdavis]

Hi, I'm new here, but I love the Combat Mission series and have spent the last few days submerged in Barbarossa to Berlin.

I may be missing something, but adding a hold fire toggle seems like a simple solution. It would be in effect unless the unit was directly threatened or a contradictory order was issued (e.g. target, cover arc, advance, or assault). In a sense, it would be like the armor "button up/unbutton" command, in that you can switch between states, but the certain conditions may cause the unit AI to change state. This could be used in conjunction with any of the other movement commands.

However, if the move command is somewhat stealthy AND includes a hold fire unless directly threatened command, then the current system is fine.

If cover arcs must be used to achieve this effect, then two things would be necessary: ability to issue cover arcs to groups and ability to set an arc at 360 degrees. Otherwise, way to much clicking and reissueing of orders would be necessary.

Well, just putting my two cents in.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Pak40:

2) A common problem with the cover arc is that people tend to forget that certain units were previously issued cover arcs.

Which is probably why there is now a hot key Shift-X Show covered arcs.

Michael

[ September 27, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by akdavis:

If cover arcs must be used to achieve this effect, then two things would be necessary: ability to issue cover arcs to groups and ability to set an arc at 360 degrees.

The 360° thing is alread in: press the Shift key while setting the arc. Alternatively, pressing the Control key (I think) allows you to set one of 180°

BTW, the Hold Fire Toggle idea sounds okay to me, but I don't know how BTS feels about the matter.

Michael

[Pak40]

Preliminary WALK tests:

I ran a couple of quick tests to determine if my infantry opened fire if using the walk command.

In both tests I had 2 Crack German platoons against 3 Regular Russian platoons on a small computer generated map. Initial placement was about 300 meters apart.

TEST 1

I walked my two German platoons towards the Russians. My squads didn't fire at the initial sight of russians, even when fired upon. However, it should be noted that the TacAI often changed movement orders and sometimes directions when my men came under fire in the open, they were seeking cover either by running or crawling. On the second turn, two of my squads took a shot at a russian unit that had run within 85 meters of my units.

TEST 2

Same forces but this time I walked the Germans parallel to the front line instead of towards the Russians. I wanted to see if they would hold their fire at a 300 meter distance from the enemy.

I ran two turns while the russians took many shots at my squads. Once again, my squads crawled or ran to cover when out in the open. Only one squad fired at the enemy, but this was because he reached his destination and I hadn't ordered him to hide.

So the answer seems to be NO. Squads will not fire at the enemy when issued the WALK command. They will only fire if they see a vulnerable or dangerous unit within 100 meters or so. This isn't identical to the SNEAK command in CMBO but it serves a purpose of getting a bunch of troops from point A to point B in stealth, especially in the beginning stages of the battle. I advise anyone wanting a tighter "hold your fire" radius to use the Cover Arc command set at 15, 30, or 50 meters.

Hope this helps.

[ September 27, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Pak40 ]

[Pak40]

le bump

[Priest]

As far as MTC is concerned, your worry about stopping your movement with a unit spotted 200m away might not be a strong argument with regards to CMBB, especially on EFOW. Most of the time (but not always) the enemy you spot is going to open fire on you, in which case you want to stop, take cover, and maybe if you are in the open have the TACAI use the RUN command to get your troops in cover. Might not be that big of an issue!

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Priest:

As far as MTC is concerned, your worry about stopping your movement with a unit spotted 200m away might not be a strong argument with regards to CMBB, especially on EFOW. Most of the time (but not always) the enemy you spot is going to open fire on you, in which case you want to stop, take cover, and maybe if you are in the open have the TACAI use the RUN command to get your troops in cover. Might not be that big of an issue!

I disagree.

If a unit that is using MTC and is in cover such as trees, then an enemy in the distance will not likely see your unit; but, your unit will see the enemy unit and stop immediately, thereby ruining your plans to have the unit keep sneaking. On the following turn I wont even be able to use MTC because the enemy unit is already in view. If I were to use MTC, my unit would immediately stop. That kind of defeats the purpose of sneaking.

[Priest]

That is probably true, still I have not had a hard time moving into contact with the enemy yet. At least not when cover is ample. As you said MTC allows you to move through cover without the enemy seeing you but you see the enemy hence the problem. Well as Kwazy already said, use Move then which is sneakier than MTC and does not stop after spotting someone. Doesn't seem like an issue to me. The only thing left for BFC to tell us is if the Move command somehow supresses the urge of your troops to rip off some shots at distant units. If not then great, if it does then we can use cover arcs. No big deal, takes about a nanosecond to do so. Just my opinion.

[akdavis]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The 360° thing is alread in: press the Shift key while setting the arc. Alternatively, pressing the Control key (I think) allows you to set one of 180°[/QB]

I double checked, and unfortunately this is not the case. CTRL automatically sets the arc to 180 deg., but allows you to set the distance and direction. SHIFT does the same, but sets the distance to maximum. It is still limited to 180 degrees.

After playing a bit tonight, it seems that units generally hold fire when issued the MOVE command (infantry at least), so this may not be a problem, that is as long as they move quietly.

[ September 28, 2002, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: akdavis ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by akdavis:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The 360° thing is alread in: press the Shift key while setting the arc. Alternatively, pressing the Control key (I think) allows you to set one of 180°

I double checked, and unfortunately this is not the case. CTRL automatically sets the arc to 180 deg., but allows you to set the distance and direction. SHIFT does the same, but sets the distance to maximum. It is still limited to 180 degrees.</font>

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Priest:

That is probably true, still I have not had a hard time moving into contact with the enemy yet. At least not when cover is ample. As you said MTC allows you to move through cover without the enemy seeing you but you see the enemy hence the problem. Well as Kwazy already said, use Move then which is sneakier than MTC and does not stop after spotting someone. Doesn't seem like an issue to me. The only thing left for BFC to tell us is if the Move command somehow supresses the urge of your troops to rip off some shots at distant units. If not then great, if it does then we can use cover arcs.

That's how I see it, but it still leaves the MtC command with very limited usefulness.

It's ironic. Two years ago when some people on the forum were arguing for a MtC command, the issue of units stopping when they spot distant enemy units was the main counter-argument given by BTS against the move.

[Pak40]

[QUOTR] That's how I see it, but it still leaves the MtC command with very limited usefulness.

It's ironic. Two years ago when some people on the forum were arguing for a MtC command, the issue of units stopping when they spot distant enemy units was the main counter-argument given by BTS against the move.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Pak40:

[QUOTR][qb] That's how I see it, but it still leaves the MtC command with very limited usefulness.

It's ironic. Two years ago when some people on the forum were arguing for a MtC command, the issue of units stopping when they spot distant enemy units was the main counter-argument given by BTS against the move.

Yes, the MTC should really only be used for recon purposes. Only a few recon type units would be issued this order and only in the beginning stages in the battle, typically.

Tactically that sounds about right:

"Yes, the MTC should really only be used for recon purposes. Only a few recon type units would be issued this order and only in the beginning stages in the battle, typically"

if that is true then MtC is implemented in the game correctly and should only be used for recon in the early stages of the battle.

That makes sense IMHO

-tom w

[ September 28, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]