New game or expansion pack?

[Bruce70]

This is probably not going to be received very well but here goes...

First off despite having a member number way above 5000 (which seems to be the cutoff point if you want any respect around here) I purchased CMBO soon after it was released and have been in love with it ever since.

Now here are my thoughts on CMBB:

Graphics/Sound: A vast improvement over CMBO but nothing particularly spectacular by todays standards (this is the last thing I worry about anyway).

Interface: I may get used to the new way of moving the view so I'll reserve judgement on that, but no other UI changes seem to be that much of an improvement to me.

Infantry combat tweaks: Probably make it a more realistic simulation but possibly less fun. Again I'll reserve judgment and I'm not really sure if I want more fun or more realism anyway.

Armour combat tweaks: The death clock is a good thing.

New orders: Good but the game still plays much the same as it always has (not that this is a bad thing)

New units/scenarios: Well obviously I haven't seen all these but this will almost certainly be the biggest reason that I will buy CMBB

Overall: I guess I got carried away by the forum hype but I have to confess to being a little disapointed with the demo. Everyone has been saying that CMBB should be considered a completely new game not just an expansion/update pack. IMO this is less than an expansion pack since we no longer have access to all the old scenarios/units but more than an update pack.

To sum up, from what I have seen in the demo and in anticipation of all those new units I will buy CMBB, but I think I would have prefered in some ways a genuine expansion pack for CMBO instead of the "new game". I hope that in the future BFC will consider producing expansion packs rather than making us buy a "new game" that is very similar to the one(s) we have already bought or at least make the units/scenarios backwards compatable (as much as possible).

[ September 03, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Bruce70 ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

It took BFC over two years to create this "update pack." CMBB is so different from CMBO that it can't be made backward compatible with CMBO. CMBB is not CMBO with Soviets in place of Americans and Brits. To me it is as much of a step forward as any other sequal.

[Michael Dorosh]

I think respect is most often granted here in deference to the quality of material one posts, rather than membership number, so I have to respectfully disagree with your initial premise.

I'll leave your follow on premises to others.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

It took BFC over two years to create this "update pack." CMBB is so different from CMBO that it can't be made backward compatible with CMBO. CMBB is not CMBO with Soviets in place of Americans and Brits. To me it is as much of a step forward as any other sequal.

In general I agree with you (although aspects could be made backward compatible) but as you say it took over two years. I would have preferred a quick and nasty expansion pack. That would have allowed BFC to start on the engine rebuild much sooner.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I think respect is most often granted here in deference to the quality of material one posts, rather than membership number, so I have to respectfully disagree with your initial premise.

Sorry that was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek comment.

[Pvt. Ryan]

They initially intended to make it backward compatible with CMBO, but they came up with so many new features that would require so much recoding of CMBO that they felt it was better to make as many improvements for CMBB as the engine could handle rather than go back to a product that was done. I'm sure most of us wish we could use the new features in CMBO, but it isn't going to happen. For most games update packs are not much more than patches to get the game working as it should have when it was released. BFC spent a lot of time listening to our feedback and making as many corrections and improvements to CMBO as they could until they simply had to move on. There are numerous subtle changes to the game that we haven't even had the chance to see yet. The whole unit purchase system has been changed and the enhanced FOW really changes the game. There are so many differences that it really feels like a different game, although with the same look and feel as the original. Future versions of CM with the new engine should be amazing, but I think most of us will be quite happy with CMBB and also the classic CMBO to occasionally return to.

[Redwolf]

So what did you think when Microsoft "updated" Windows 95 to 98?

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by redwolf:

So what did you think when Microsoft "updated" Windows 95 to 98?

I thought it was a badly needed update, was glad that they provided an upgrade option as opposed to paying the full price and was even more glad that all my programs still worked in W98. What's your point?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

Sorry that was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek comment.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm not even French!

[Bruce70]

Good points Pvt. Ryan. There are two ways to look at it I guess.

Some things from CMBO could have been forward compatible with CMBB. Maps for example are essentially the same as far as I can tell. Unit models I assume are the same format just lower poly's. If you did have all the units then scenarios should be essentially the same, but of course would need to be re-playbalanced for the new combat mechanics.

From the other side quite a bit (but obviously not all) of CMBB could be backwards compatible with CMBO (graphics, sound, orders etc).

I am not so much complaining about CMBB (well I'm not complaining at all really - just a little under-awed), I just hope that BFC will keep the future in mind when designing the new engine.

[ September 03, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Bruce70 ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

So what did you think when Microsoft "updated" Windows 95 to 98?

I thought it was a badly needed update, was glad that they provided an upgrade option as opposed to paying the full price and was even more glad that all my programs still worked in W98. What's your point?</font>

[Silvio Manuel]

I was just playing Chance Encounter on the old CMBO demo (feeling nostaligic, you see). In the mop-up phase of the match, I ran 3 full platoons with no suppression across 200m+ of open ground, right at an immobilized Sherman, AND I had a full-strength, unsuppressed enemy Rifle 45 platoon on my flank. The gamey rush EASILY succeeded, which isn't too realistic. I've only given the CMBB Tutorial one test-spin, but it was obvious that the realism (i.e. MG effectiveness) is much better. CMBB's improvements are certainly there, you'll see it even more in the full version.

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

Some things from CMBO that could have been forward compatible with CMBB. Maps for example are essentially the same as far as I can tell. Unit models I assume are the same format just lower poly's. If you did have all the units then scenarios should be essentially the same, but of course would need to be re-playbalanced for the new combat mechanics.

Actually that couldnt be more wrong

The map format changed as we wanted to add in new terrain for the Eastern Front such as factories, steppe, etc. This change was actually one of the first that couldnt be backwards compatabale with CMBO, and was the first indication that the changes we wished to make were going to be too wide spread to update the origional. Also, weather is part of the map file and thus couldnt be expanded without again changing the format.

Also, all vehicles would need to be remoddelled for the new system. This doesnt just mean the 3D models, but the vehicle stats as well as Charles has increased the amount of detail stored on each vehicle. Radios, optics and more detailed armour penetration (we now model flaws in the Panther plates for insteace) are three things that spring to mind that are not in the origional.

Sorry guys, we tried to make it backwards compatable, but doing so would have caused CMBB to be a lesser product. We werent will do to comprimise it in this way.

Dont get me wrong though Bruce, your allowed you opinions I just wanted to let you know that although to someone not in the know it may seem that we are trying to make a quick buck by not making CMBB an expansion pack that couldnt be further from the truth.

Dan

[ September 03, 2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[tracer]

Well as far as getting respect, I have found that there are people who have really helped me out and there are those who think, well thier crap does'nt stink!! I think it is a great game, that's right a GAME and that's it, if these people think that they have to have everyone bend over and kiss thier behinds all I can say is get a REAL LIFE, and to all those people that have helped people out like me, THANK YOU, you guys are great.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Actually that couldnt be more wrong

The map format changed as we wanted to add in new terrain for the Eastern Front such as factories, steppe, etc. This change was actually one of the first that couldnt be backwards compatabale with CMBO, and was the first indication that the changes we wished to make were going to be too wide spread to update the origional. Also, weather is part of the map file and thus couldnt be expanded without again changing the format.

Also, all vehicles would need to be remoddelled for the new system. This doesnt just mean the 3D models, but the vehicle stats as well as Charles has increased the amount of detail stored on each vehicle. Radios, optics and more detailed armour penetration (we now model flaws in the Panther plates for insteace) are three things that spring to mind that are not in the origional.

Sorry guys, we tried to make it backwards compatable, but doing so would have caused CMBB to be a lesser product. We werent will do to comprimise it in this way.

Dont get me wrong though Bruce, your allowed you opinions I just wanted to let you know that although to someone not in the know it may be we are trying to make a quick buck by not making CMBB an expansion pack that couldnt be further from the truth.

Dan

Conceptually there is no reason why these things couldn't have been backwards compatible if the original engine had been designed with future expansion in mind. The map format for example could have allowed for future terrain types.

I am not criticising the original engine either (how could I after getting so much enjoyment out of it?), I don't expect you to have a crystal ball. But with the benifit of hind sight I hope that the new engine will be designed for the long hall. Wouldn't it be great to get an expansion pack every 12 months! If well designed the engine could handle everything up to the Vietnam war at least (and please include the remote posibility that one day, in the fullness of time, there might be a need for a campaign option).

I don't expect everyone(anyone?) to agree with my analysis of CMBB but I do hope we can all agree that the next engine should be as expandable as possible.

[ September 03, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Bruce70 ]

[ARRPEEGEE]

Guess I misunderstood the topic post

[ September 03, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Dont get me wrong though Bruce, your allowed you opinions I just wanted to let you know that although to someone not in the know it may seem that we are trying to make a quick buck by not making CMBB an expansion pack that couldnt be further from the truth.

Whoa! I just reread that last paragraph. In no way am I suggesting that BFC made it a new game just to get more money, sorry if I gave that impression. Personally I think expansion packs are a better way to make "a quick buck" and I am all for them.

[Zarquon]

What's the difference between an update pack and a new game, anyway? You'll get new scenarios and (perhaps) a couple bugfixes with an update pack. With CMBB, you'll get the scenarios and some _major_ gameplay increases.

In the end, just ask yourself : is it worth your $49 (or whatever the price is)? I think yes, and if BTS earns more on an hourly basis than with CMBO, that's fine with me. The hours I will spend with CMBB will be worth my money. At least I know that out there there's somebody devoted to craftsmanship. They should prosper.

[Kwazydog]

Bruce, no worries...the net can be an odd form of communication at times

Basically you dont have to worry, we have always planned that the rewrite will be much more 'upgradable', for lack of a better word. We want to be able to easily add vehicles, buildings, scenarios, terrain, and even features, etc without any difficulty. We are only in initial planning stage at the moment, but when we have more info for you guys about our direction in the future

Dan

[Bruce70]

Thanks KwazyDog that's good news. I didn't cop nearly as much flak from this post as I expected (touch wood) and this response has made it more than worthwhile.

[Sitzkrieg]

It's like all software, very hard to predict the future, especially if you don't know if you are going to have a future, as was the case with BTS. They didn't even know if CM:BO was going to the major success that is was.

Personally, I'm glad BTS didn't go the "expansion pack" route. If done right I agree it would be very cool, kinda like ASL modules (but even those had extra rules and so on), and might make additional theathers and features come about quicker.

As it is, I'm just as happy they took the time to redo some of the things that were lacking in CM:BO (machine guns, tanks loosing track of targets, I think everyone knows the list).

Now I'm just looking for that damn pre-order announcement.

[Panzer76]

As many has pointed out before, I think I will reserve my final judgement when I have the full game, but....

When I first played the demo, I was a tad bit dissapoited, I can agree with u there Bruce, I dunno, I think I was so hyped that anything other than a orgasm would have left me disapointed

Anyhow, after playing the demo ALOT, I enjoy it more and more, and I suspect the same will happen with the full game. Im REALLY looking forward playing QBs with the new rarity system..

Only some 16 days to go...

[ September 03, 2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Panzer76 ]

[jiggles]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

How difficult might it be to write a convertor from CMBO to CMBB maps? Convert the bits which are possible, set the new bits which have no CMBO equivalent to some sensible default? User can then tweak the map up in the editor to patch over the bad bits?

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

Maps for example are essentially the same as far as I can tell.

They are not

If you did have all the units then scenarios should be essentially the same, but of course would need to be re-playbalanced for the new combat mechanics.

Again, an incorrect assumption

From the other side quite a bit (but obviously not all) of CMBB could be backwards compatible with CMBO (graphics, sound, orders etc).

I suspect that very little is backward compatible

[Fetchez la Vache]

I have a lot of sympathy with Bruce70's points. I must admit to being somewhat underwhelmed by the CMBB demo on the first look. I've been waiting a year for this?

But I'm giving it time. I didn't appreciate the 'death clock' to begin with. I didn't appreciate the techniques required to use the Russian infantry effectively. I didn't appreciate the improved use of suspressive fire. And I can't appreciate the myriad of other small tweaks which I'm sure to come across in the FV.

The way the game plays in the CMBB demo feels radically different c.f. CMBO now after a few days play. It just doesn't look that much different to me, yet... A new engine would have been wonderful though, would have been the icing on the cake. Still, it's damn good cake even without.

The thing I like the most is: it'll be making me play CM again after a break of over 6 months!