Warsaw Uprising Scenario

[Maxx]

If I fail as the Partisans, we could always lobby our best player on the forum, MasterGoodale, to play as them. I know he has the ability to heat up the TNT to a molten state, and fling hot lead at those SS baddies. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Guest Mike]

IMO the Warsaw uprising is no more or less morally bad news than any other partisan fight. any persons caught carrying arms without being part of a uniformed armed service were liable to execution by all sides.

And of course there were many examples of unjustified execution too.

War is hell - it is simply not PC at all.

the Warsaw uprising is a battle - perhaps between grossly unbalanced forces - but that's not unusual either. I'm writing a scenario from October 1941 when Katukov's (soon to be the 12st Guards) Tank Brigade, crewed by instructors from various tank schools, almsot completely destroyed teh 4th Panzer Division over a few days - claiming 150 tanks and other vehicles destroyed for no great cost.

The Germans were restricted by muddy ground to a few cratered roads while the T34's picked them off at leisure.

It was a bit of a massacre too, so does anyone object to it as a scenario?

Is it "more" OK because it is Germans on the receiving end? Or because it is a Panzer Division rather than partisans? Or because it is Soviets dishing it out rather then the SS?

Quite frankly none of these points interest me in the least - it was a battle in WW2 between armed forces, and is therefore a legitimate subject for a scenario IMO.

As was Warsaw.

[ December 04, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Xavier]

Rune, a guy already made a "Warsaw uprising" scenario(an operation in fact) ...but for CMBO. It's in french and it's called "Varsovie 44". The map seems quite accurate:

http://appui-feu.panzershark.com/pages/Varsovie44.html

http://appui-feu.panzershark.com/fichiers/Carte_Varsovie.zip

[ December 04, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]

[KwK43 L/71]

Frankly I understand Armdchair's objections however I think this scenario should still be released.

1) If nothing it draws attention to what happened in the Warsaw ghetto.

2) I don't think it's fair to compare the ghetto to the concentration camps or prisoner massacre's. The people who died in those were murdered, the people in the ghetto rose up against the Germans and died in combat, regardless of their chances the still had one.

3) The Neo Nazi angle. There's nothing to prevent some little bastard from going and out and making a massacre scenario himself so honestly it makes no difference wether or not you release it in that respect. If someone wants to play as the Germans then they can, it's part of the game but frankly I don't see the joy.

I say release it.

[Armdchair]

What distinguishes the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising from being just any other WWII battle is that it was a battle of extermination. The partisans were trying to resist being exterminated, the Nazis were bent on killing them all, sooner or later. That’s the connection to other historical massacres.

Obviously, trying to convince wargamers - on a wargame board - not to play a wargame - is a hopeless cause. I thought people should know why others might find this particular subject in bad taste.

[rune]

Guys,

Here is the main briefing. Remember, this is NOT the Warsaw uprising in Late 1944, this is a real earlier uprising in April 1943.

Title: Ghetto Uprising

Type: German Assault

Date: April 19th, 1943

Location: Warsaw Ghetto

Region: Central

Weather: Clear, Cool

Terrain: City

Wind: Breeze from the W

Turns: 20+

Author: Tim 'Rune' Orosz

Best Played AS: Two Player or as Allied Partisans against the AI.

Background: Summer of 1942, reports of the people being removed from the Warsaw Ghetto and being sent to the Camp at Treblinka where they were killed, reached the Z.O.B. (for the Polish name, Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa, which means Jewish Fighting Organization).

Their leader was a 23-year-old, called Mordecai Anielewicz, and he called for armed resistance. Weapons were smuggled into the ghetto, and plans were made.

The Warsaw ghetto at this time was not one location. A wall that was over 10 feet high, topped with barbed wire, and closely guarded to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw, walled off sections of the city from the surrounding communities.

Jan. 1943, when Germans troops came in to send more people to the camps, they were met with gunfire, and withdrew a few days later.

April 19th, German Troops and Police came to ship the remaining inhabitants to the camps. They met with heavy resistance.

Semi-historical: about 800 points.

Sources:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Anielevich.html

http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/wgupris.htm

Author's Notes: I hope this scenario honors their brave fight against impossible odds. This is the FIRST uprising that occurred in Warsaw. The resistance lasted nearly a month. 56,000 were captured with over 7000 being shot, while the remainder were sent to the camps.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by rune:

demoss,

The reasoning is most definitely in the briefing...but this is very much an international game...not sure if the briefing would even be read...much less if the user could understand my English.

Rune

Then how would they know what kind of partisans they were supposed to be - or object? :confused:

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Armdchair:

What distinguishes the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising from being just any other WWII battle is that it was a battle of extermination. The partisans were trying to resist being exterminated, the Nazis were bent on killing them all, sooner or later. That’s the connection to other historical massacres.

There were many such battles - partisans in general faced extermination.

What else makes this different?

Obviously, trying to convince wargamers - on a wargame board - not to play a wargame - is a hopeless cause. I thought people should know why others might find this particular subject in bad taste.

Most serious wargamers are sticklers for historical accuracy - attempting censorship because of feelings of outrage or whatever is still censorship.

Tell me - do you also oppose historical books about the uprising? Commemorations of it? teh survivors tlking about it?

Why not?

Waht else would you stop us from making scenarios about?

[Armdchair]

Rune - thanks for asking for opinions. The briefing and links are informative, educational.

Mike -I am not telling anyone to do anything. Rune asked for opinions - I gave him mine. Rune expressed concern people might be offended - I suggested why they might be. Rune will do what he wants to do, so will everyone else. My approval is not required. I am not telling people what they should do or how they should think. I expressed my opinion, others expressed theirs. Considering I was the lone dissenting voice, I’m impressed that everyone was civil and that no one flamed me. Let’s agree to disagree.

[Radar]

If you would like to read an excellent book on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising I would recommend (if you can find it) reading The Bravest Battle by Dan Kurzman 1976 Pinnacle Books

[rune]

Guys,

I can understand his position...he lost family there. I can understand his feelings. He replied to a topic I posted, and did not say he would ban it...he just feels a bad subject for a scenario. I totally understand that point.

However, I am torn...i know the saying "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it". Masada is a similar situation, and Isreal to this day honors the fight there.

Still undecided... but someone is looking over the scenario to see if it honors or not...

Rune

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Armdchair:

Mike -I am not telling anyone to do anything. Rune asked for opinions - I gave him mine. Rune expressed concern people might be offended - I suggested why they might be. Rune will do what he wants to do, so will everyone else. My approval is not required. I am not telling people what they should do or how they should think. I expressed my opinion, others expressed theirs. Considering I was the lone dissenting voice, I’m impressed that everyone was civil and that no one flamed me. Let’s agree to disagree.

Fair enough, and well said.

I think I got a little annoyed by your equating the uprising with the various massacres of unarmed prisoners. It might be a moot point to the victims now, but I see it as significantly different.

[ December 04, 2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Shep]

All,

I lost family in WWII also. I'm named after a great uncle who was killed for his race... a Native American in 45th Infantry Division. I also had another great uncle who survived the Bataan Death March.

The people of New Mexico re-enact the Death March every April, and I suppose it may cause nightmares to well up again for the survivors and families who were affected, but the benefits still far outweigh the hurt. People need to know what happened there.

If the scenario respectfully represents the Warsaw Ghetto Jews' fight for freedom and against evil, then it helps to ensure their fight was not in vain.

Rune did the right thing by broaching the subject first. That's a respectful approach.

[86smopuim]

I'm an american born pole, though not jewish. There are family stories escaping nazi atrocities, then soviet atrocites. I would not be offended. I say release it.

I was going to do a port of the Mila 18 scenario, because the fight was so honorable(on the defenders side), but as you already have this scenario, I will not.

[Rob Murray]

As far as I'm concerned Rune; I think that you should release it. If someone is bothered by the scenario's subject then they don't have to download it. Freedom of choice. I understand Armchair's objections to it; however I don't want to be denied the chance to play a scenario just because someone else finds the subject matter objectionable. And no, I wouldn't be playing the SS side.

[Major Jerkov]

I know little about the ghetto uprisings, but find it intriguing. Most the nazi-wannabe-punks, if so inclined to play a "wargame" such as CM, would find any other numerous scenario offerings to satiate their ignorance. As said before, the poles/jews were armed, its not a "total massacre" scenario... is it?

[Hortlund]

I have no doubt that your intentions are good, and I have no doubt that the battle you have made is a really good one. Nevertheless I think you should scrap it.

It just leaves a bad taste to "recreate" certain aspects of ww2. There are other "battles" that shouldnt be simulated either. The second Warsaw uprising would be an example of one of those.

[CavalryMan]

In reading these posts a couple of points come to mind.

When CMBB was released there was considerable wailing about the removal of SS runes from the European version. The grounds for this were historical accuracy and censorship. There has been a mod produced that rolls back these changes. It is my current opinion that if the inclusion of these symbolic markings does not cause offence then the inclusion of a historic scenario should not either.

My second point leads on from the first. We are all here because we enjoy playing a simulation of war. War is not clean and sterile as other members of this community can vouch. By playing this game we have all rationalized the ethics of playing a game that is about the killing of humans. If we are capable of such rationalizations it is my opinion that we are capable of drawing our own ethical line in the sand about which scenarios we do or don’t want to play. I appreciate that ArmdChair and Leutnant Hortlund believe it steps over their line and I believe that opinion should be respected.

<disclaimer>

Just my opinion without the benefit of detailed historical knowledge of the subject.

</disclaimer>

[Speedy]

For those of you here interested in a personal account of the Warsaw Uprisings I would recommend the book 'Caged' by David Landau. This is a war years autobiography of a bloke who fought in both uprisings having escaped into hiding in the general Warsaw population after the failure of the ghetto uprising. As the author emigrated to Australia after the war the book is available here though I do not know about it's availabilty internationally.

Oh and to answer Runes question I say release the scenario.

[Clubfoot]

A very legitimate battle. Komorowski claims 9700 Polish Home Army KIA with a further 6000 MIA. Von dem Bach estimates 10000 German KIA and 7000 MIA. Hardly a one-sided massacre. Let's see it!

[Hortlund]

I'm quite sure the battle was very exciting and not "a massacre at all". However, my concern is what took place after the battle. The knowledge we have about who was fighting, why they were fighting, and what happened after the battle is enough for me to say that I would never want to play either side in that scenario. It just leaves a bad taste. Just as it would leave a bad taste if we were to see some US "hurry to Malmedy to save the POW's before they are gunned down"-scenario or some "Liberate Dachau"-operation.

As I said, there are certain aspects of ww2 that should not be included in a game like this. It should be shouted from the rooftops, and printed in all the books, but we should not "play" about it.

[ColdSober]

The FIRST Warsaw Uprising doesn't even get a mention in the reference work I usually go by (Edited by John Keegan), so I'm pleased to see anything which makes me even a little less ignorant about it.

As a matter of interest, the SECOND uprising, 1-3 August 1944, is described here as a battle fought by "42,500 Home Army troops, plus civilians and the Communist People's Army, with great unity, discipline and enthusiasm" winning "two-thirds of the city in twenty hours on 1 August" before the German counter-attack led by SS Commander Bach-Zelewski, " a specialist in partisan uprisings". The Germans, reinforced by the Goering Panzer Division are said to have lost 10,000 killed, 7000 missing and 9000 wounded, against 15,OOO killed on the Polish side, during the fighting in and around Warsaw.

After the armistice signed in October, the Home Army, but significantly "not the People's Army" "were given combatant status (and, therefore, normal POW treatment) and the principle of collective responsibility was not to be applied to civilians." What happened to caputured members of the People's Army is left to our imaginations, and no doubt can be seen as an addition to the undeniable horrors perpetrated on the Polish people in the Warsaw area. However, nothing I've read so far about the two UPRISINGS gives me cause to think that they should be avoided as potential subject matter for a CM scenario.

What happened to the Jews in the Warsaw GHETTO is a different matter entirely. I believe that this distinction should be made very clear. We are talking about the difference between armed uprisings (weapons having been airdropped to the partisans), and the massacre of civilians. Without actually seeing this scenario, I can't be sure exactly what is being focused on. For this reason alone I think the scenario should be made available to the public. What surprises me now is that, considering the size of the forces involved in the two UPRISINGS, Polish partisans are not represented in CM. Does BFC have an explanation they'd care to put forward?

Just my two eurocentimes' worth.

[CavalryMan]

Sorry but I cant help but feel that such a matter is in need of a BUMP. If the rest of you disagree then please feel free to let it sink again

[Cpt.Kloss]

Originally posted by rune:

Guys,

Here is the main briefing. Remember, this is NOT the Warsaw uprising in Late 1944, this is a real earlier uprising in April 1943.

Title: Ghetto Uprising

Type: German Assault

Date: April 19th, 1943

Location: Warsaw Ghetto

Region: Central

Weather: Clear, Cool

Terrain: City

Wind: Breeze from the W

Turns: 20+

Author: Tim 'Rune' Orosz

.

-------------------------------

Rune, make a scenario with 44 upraising - it will be very interesting to play with Sturmtiger on German side and overtaken Panthers crewed by Polish partisans.!

regards

[Cpt.Kloss]

Another possible difficulty is modeling weapons.

During 44 upraising Polish partisans were armered mainly in German eqipement with some addition of british stens (dropped and smuggled) and custom-made weapons.

To all who do not know: Polish Home Army was loyal to Polish government in London (not that in Moscow) and therefore many people claim that Soviets deliberately stopped their offensive to let a "problem" solve itself.

After the war many partisans from polish Home Army were sentenced, imprisoned and even executed by Polish communist goverment for "hostile activities".