rune Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 All, I had ready for the cd release, a scenario based on the historical uprising in Warsaw. [The earlier uprising] I did not have it go on the CD for 2 reasons... 1. For obvious reasons, the partisans defending had to be russian and not Polish. Why? There are no Polish partisans in the game. 2. The scenario was made to honor the courage of these fighters, fighting a hopless battle. However, not sure how the scenario could be taken...and definitely do not want to insult anyone. The few people who have seen it, enjoyed the fight. My question to all, should I release it? Just give it to the few that may ask? Scrap it all together? Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Rename it as a fictional scenario in another town or explain reason for the Russian partisans in the briefing. I don't think too many people will get their knickers in a knot then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I say that as long as you stick to what is as historically accurate as this game will allow, you should definitely release it. Changing Polish to Russian partisans is fine in my opinion, changing other important factors, ones that don't NEED to be changed due to gameplay or mechanical reasons, should be avoided, but you knew all this I'm sure. So, if you're asking about what's PC, well, it is an important battle in WW2, if it can be simulated, why not? One vote for release it, no unnecessary changes. History is good. [ December 04, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I agree with Panzer Leader. If you're worried about your intent being unclear, put it in the briefing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 demoss, The reasoning is most definitely in the briefing...but this is very much an international game...not sure if the briefing would even be read...much less if the user could understand my English. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KwK43 L/71 Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I say release it, the change in nationality of the partisans is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Yes, please release it. Anyone who can read English well enough to find the download on B&T or the Depot (or wherever it's posted) ought to be able to understand your briefing comments. If you're really worried about it, you could give the scenario a yellow-journalism-style title like "Valor in the Ruins" or something -- but I don't think that's really necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Absolutely release it. People will get offended if they are in the mood to be offended no matter what you do. It's good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I'm offended by this whole discussion. Why? I don't like urban battles much. Thats why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armdchair Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Rune, I don't know you but I know you're one of the top designers and well-respected within the CM community so this is not a reflection on you as a person but yes, I think a “Warsaw Ghetto Uprising” scenario is in bad taste. Some people might argue all wargames are, etc but what I find truly disturbing about this particular scenario is the idea of people playing as SS troopers liquidating the Warsaw Ghetto. It borders on creating a concentration camp scenario. What was the fate of the partisans in the Warsaw Ghetto? Think about it. The other bitter irony, of course, is using Russians as Jewish/Polish partisans while it has been asserted that the Red Army deliberately halted to allow the Germans to kill off non-Communist partisan forces. I think the fact that you asked the question tells me that you yourself don’t feel entirely at ease about doing this scenario. Thanks for soliciting opinions on the matter. [ December 04, 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Armdchair ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 Yes, it is why i asked for opinions. Obviously I will have the final say...but not sure if people would do exactly what you say. I have been giving this thought obviously, and have not been able to reach a conclusion. Obviously, intention was to honor the fighters...but you are also correct that some would want to level the ghetto. I will continue to read opinions before I make mine...and since I have had this scenario done for the CD release, if I haven't made up my mind in three months, I doubt I will make a fast decision anyway. Thanks for your opinion. I definitely will consider it. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depawel Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Release it please. Armdchair had some good arguements but the whole point of the scenario is to play as the Jewish Resistance, not the SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeeMao Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 ASL (Advanced Squad Leader for the uninitiated) has a scenario in the 'Beyond Valour' module on this very topic called 'Mila 18'. This scenario also uses 'Russian' partisans (the counters are colored like Russian squads), but I've never heard any sort of outcry against the scenario despite it being one of the oldest ASL scenarios produced, and I don't see any reason why there should be. It is, after all, only a game. Please do release it - I'd be interested in examining the tactical challenges it offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Is armdchair saying not to release it because some crazy people will get kicks out of levelling Warsaw? So not releasing it would help whom? The joker who wants to level Warsaw will not be affected, he can find other means to satisfy his rage. The people who lost their lives in Warsaw will not be protected. Besides them being dead, it is just another case of their story not being told. I've never understood why certain things shouldn't be discussed, or kept private or quiet (or not made into a scenario for that matter.) Now, it's not a turkey-shoot right? You're not lining up a battalion of ammo-less partisans before a trench full of HMGs are you? That would be sick and wrong, but to me, anything which brings a little understanding, which tells the story of heroes is a good thing. History is good. Knowledge is good. Hell, I'd want you to release it just so I could read the intro if nothing else. Oh, and hey, do they get the captured 251 and hetzer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by depawel: Release it please. Armdchair had some good arguements but the whole point of the scenario is to play as the Jewish Resistance, not the SS.If there's a Sturmtiger in the scenario I know what side the majority of the gamers will play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by rune: Yes, it is why i asked for opinions. Obviously I will have the final say...but not sure if people would do exactly what you say. I have been giving this thought obviously, and have not been able to reach a conclusion. Obviously, intention was to honor the fighters...but you are also correct that some would want to level the ghetto. I will continue to read opinions before I make mine...and since I have had this scenario done for the CD release, if I haven't made up my mind in three months, I doubt I will make a fast decision anyway. Thanks for your opinion. I definitely will consider it. RuneI vote for releasing it. As long as it isn't a predetermined total rout, one could argue it honors those Poles/Jews who said 'enough' and took up arms. It also might draw attention and recognition to what happened for those of us who aren't familiar with the history. In that sense, it would be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armdchair Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 It’s in bad taste the same way that a Katyn Forest, Baba Yar, Malmedy, and Dachau scenario would be in bad taste. Why not Andersonville, Wounded Knee, My Lai? Maybe we could do a Dresden scenario - a huge map of flaming city tiles with thousands of German units with “low ammunition” to represent German civilians and tons of Allied fighter-bombers overhead. We could call it “Nazis in Hell”. I’m sure the Germans on this forum would love it. I am not accusing anyone of anything but merely trying to point out that, yes, it is crossing a line that should not be crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 Actually there were two uprising, this was the first uprising, so no Sturmtigers. I did not know there was a Warsaw Uprising for ASL, I have since searched and found it. Maybe a line in the text to play two player or play as partisans against the AI. I will edit the briefing tonight. I would like one or two volunteers to play it against each other, and let me know if it should be released. Obviously no, the partisans are scatted in house to house fighting, not lined up in front of trenches. So...two volunteers to play against each other please... In the meantime, I am still split on this...I see the points raised...on the other hand, to teach new generations about the bravery shown there, against hopeless odds. Should it not be honored the way Masada still is? I REALLY don't know.... Rune Rune [ December 04, 2002, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: rune ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by Armdchair: It’s in bad taste the same way that a Katyn Forest, Baba Yar, Malmedy, and Dachau scenario would be in bad taste. Why not Andersonville, Wounded Knee, My Lai? Maybe we could do a Dresden scenario - a huge map of flaming city tiles with thousands of German units with “low ammunition” to represent German civilians and tons of Allied fighter-bombers overhead. We could call it “Nazis in Hell”. I’m sure the Germans on this forum would love it. I am not accusing anyone of anything but merely trying to point out that, yes, it is crossing a line that should not be crossed.But Armdchair, those villagers of My Lai weren't armed, nor were the US soldiers at Malmedy.. nor the union soldiers at Andersonville prison etc. The difference here is Warsaw had semi-military (militia?) units out to aggressively kill Germans. As such, it could/should be modeled, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Katyn Forest, Malmedy, Dachau, and Dresden weren't even battles (I don't know the others well enough to comment.) The difference is that the Poles TOOK UP ARMS and fought the German Occupation in the Polish Uprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I'll play, Rune. Either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer Leader: I'll play, Rune. Either side.Me too, but I prefer to play partisan BTW that's a good point about Masada Rune, and a better comparison. [ December 04, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 OK, but with this moniker, I don't want anyone to think I'm playing for some kind of twisted reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armdchair Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Maybe I’m too close to it. I lost family in Poland in the death camps. I personally knew a Polish Resistance fighter who lost his father and brother in the Katyn Forest massacre and who fought in Poland during the Warsaw uprising. I was a member of this forum when a Neo-Nazi was banned for posting atrocity photos. I hate to imagine some unknown little Nazi punk having his own little ghetto pogrom for kicks. Again-I don’t see any malice from other posters who simply see this as just another war scenario but if no one else was raising any objections I thought I should point out why Rune questioned releasing the scenario at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavalryMan Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I regret that my knowledge of the uprising is insufficient to form a well informed opinion. However I wish to applaud Rune and the other informed contributors for seeking and joining such a debate. It has restored my faith in the intelligence of this board's membership, which after some of the recent posts had taken a knocking. I am looking forward to reading the well argued points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts