What does Squad Leader do better than CM?

[Ted]

LoL,

Just got to this thread.

Oh those rules….

I remember playing with my brother and on many occasions I'd stop play and declare a rule.

My brother would groan and say “Oh no, not another one of Teddy’s Obscure Rule Numbers” and knew he was in trouble.

Now it’s been a long time, but I seem to remember rolling a low Dice roll and hitting one of his fast moving tanks then rolling a number one higher than the maximum to kill number (say a 7 instead of a needed 6 or less).

My brother, who couldn’t believe I hit him in the first place, was pleased and went to continue his turn when I said “Wait” and went to the “Book”. (Brother groaned).

Well it turned out that one number greater than the kill was a possible Shock.

-Roll the dice- and sure enough he failed and was shocked (Brother groaned).

Now, when an AFV while on the move gets Shocked it must finish its move traveling in a random direction dictated by a die roll (Brother groaned).

He travels down an open road drifting towards the only house in sight and, sure enough crashes into it (Brother groaned).

Dice role to see if he immobilizes, he makes it. (Brother relieved).

“Wait” I say and open book (Brother groaned).

“Obscure Rule Number One Twenty Two C”….

A roll of the dice later and his AFV “crashes into the basement” and is removed from play (Brother quit).

So, my two cents:

-AFV’s in CM can’t crash into wooden houses, fall into a basement and disappear.

-In CM it doesn’t take 4 “dice” rolls and 4 “die” rolls just to move one tank.

[dieseltaylor]

As I said - ASL the surest way to put somebody off tactical war gaming ever. Those rules were the most insane example of disappearing up your Khyber in the search for realism. Forget game playability at your peril.

[Richie]

So you didn't roll to see if the crew survived then?...

[Ted]

Arrrgghhh, another dice roll.

[RMC]

Originally posted by Ted:

-AFV’s in CM can’t crash into wooden houses, fall into a basement and disappear.

-In CM it doesn’t take 4 “dice” rolls and 4 “die” rolls just to move one tank.

Yeah, and CM suffers for it. Tanks should be able to crash into basements.

Your anecdote reminds me of something that happened in CM:BO many years ago. I had a panther on a hill and it was moving. A sherman 76 knocked it out and it continued moving and accelerated downhill to come to a stop next to a building.

[Battlefront.com]

Funny to see that the myth that CM started out as SL/ASL is still alive and well I've been with this since before the beginning and I can assure you that Charles thought about SL/ASL for about a week before deciding it was hopelessly ill suited to a realistic simulation environment. Ah yes... that was almost 8 years ago over beers at Talullah's bar with napkins for note taking. Man that was a long time ago... I think that bar/restaurant has changed hands and redone 4 times since then. But I digress...

Charles did have every single module, rule book, expansion pack, etc. that Avalon Hill (as it was still known wen we started this) ever produced. And after that first week of exploration, they were never looked at again. They sat in a huge pile in the sapre closet of Charles' appartment, boxed up and moved to the house he lives in now, then sold on eBay a few years ago.

Now, I think the differences between CM and SL/ASL can be categorized into 3 types:

1. SL/ASL had it wrong and CM therefore didn't do it

2. SL/ASL had it right but we handled it differently (and also right)

3. SL/ASL had it right but we didn't do it for one reason or another

We fully understand that CM doesn't have everything right, but on balance there is no question that CM offers a richer, more realistic environment for WWII combat than SL/ASL could ever hope to acheive with paper, dice, and cardboard cutouts. Even if CM was nothing but a direct port and handled the plethora of obscure rules invisibly this would be the case since (as people have pointed out) so much energy was wasted in SL/ASL trying to figure out what rules applied instead of what tactics applied.

SL/ASL was the best simulation of WWII combat in the pre-computer days. Nothing can take that away from it. Just like the Tiger and Panthers of WWII were the kings of the battlefields of their day, even if by today's standards they are vastly inferior to any MBT made in the last 30 years.

Steve

[RMC]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Funny to see that the myth that CM started out as SL/ASL is still alive and well

Myth? Myth you say? Bigtime Software's Computer Squad Leader was a myth? Too bad I didn't save any of those quaint screenshots that featured *gasp* hexes. And then Avalon Hill died and from the ashes of CSL came Combat Mission. I still remember all the moaning about the name.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

...here is the quintessential reason why ASL is inferior to the Combat Mission series....the bleedin need to be a rules lawyer who knows all the acronyms as if they were a seperate well studied language.

And one of the main reasons I never took up ASL. I did the entire SL through GI series, bought extra map boards, collected all the scenario cards, rules questions published in The General, etc. But I could see where things were headed. Even playing SL and its kindred, I spent more time looking up rules than I did playing the game. It was fun of a sort, but enough is enough.

Plus, ASL was WAY too expensive. At least for my budget. In those days, I figured any game costing more than US$15 was suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Funny to see that the myth that CM started out as SL/ASL is still alive and well I've been with this since before the beginning and I can assure you that Charles thought about SL/ASL for about a week before deciding it was hopelessly ill suited to a realistic simulation environment.

I think this got started because at the outset, AH announced the project was going to be computerized SL/ASL. They had been down this road before. Close Combat was also supposed to be computerized SL/ASL, until the makers of that came to the same conclusion that you and Charles did. So, for AH it was "once more into the breach". Naturally the fan base for SL/ASL were eager for this, and there followed several months for the idea to become engrained among the faithful—not to say insanely fanatic—followers before the true situation became clarified.

I was logging on to the old (very old it seems now) BTS board in those days (I go back to Over the Reich), and even there I think it took weeks for the facts to sink in. I think at first we were confused, disappointed, even dismayed. But then, warily, we began to debate—often heatedly—what the new game should be like. There were those who thought the game should be an RTS, "just like" Command & Conquer. Others thought it should be another of the glut of FPSs already on the market. But BTS stuck to its guns, and I was pleased to agree with them. And I must say that despite the naysayers, and regardless of whatever they might have felt privately lying awake in the dead of night, they exuded confidence in their concept. Even when the initial screenshots were ghastly enough to send one running screaming into the streets , they were undaunted...well, mostly undaunted. They persisted, and mostly everything eventually found its proper place. Pretty good game, I'd say.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by RMC:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Funny to see that the myth that CM started out as SL/ASL is still alive and well

Myth? Myth you say? Bigtime Software's Computer Squad Leader was a myth? Too bad I didn't save any of those quaint screenshots that featured *gasp* hexes. And then Avalon Hill died and from the ashes of CSL came Combat Mission. I still remember all the moaning about the name. </font>

[RMC]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I think this got started because at the outset, AH announced the project was going to be computerized SL/ASL. They had been down this road before. Close Combat was also supposed to be computerized SL/ASL, until the makers of that came to the same conclusion that you and Charles did. So, for AH it was "once more into the breach". Naturally the fan base for SL/ASL were eager for this, and there followed several months for the idea to become engrained among the faithful—not to say insanely fanatic—followers before the true situation became clarified.

Remember that the original title for Close Combat was Beyond Squad Leader. To me that means it was already attempt to get past some of the board game conventions.

I would say that Atomic and BTS came to similar conclusions about the feasibility of a direct port and the use of the computer's strengths to make something as rich and detailed as SL/ASL and yet be infinitely easier to play. Both games ditched the intricate phasing system because simulaneity could be acheived without it.

Found this old piece from the days when CSL died and CM was born:

CSL is Dead

It’s a story strangely reminiscent of the Beyond Squad Leader saga of several years ago. Wargame developer Big Time Software (like developer Atomic Games) was signed by Avalon Hill to do a computer version of the classic board wargame Squad Leader. Like Atomic's Beyond Squad Leader (which became Close Combat and was published by Microsoft), Big Time’s early design was not a direct translation of the board game (although it was much closer), but instead a game in the spirit of the board game. And also like Atomic, Big Time has experienced some "strategic differences" with Avalon Hill and has broken with them on this project, taking the design (now called Combat Mission) on the road.

"Combat Mission is an entirely original work that uses nothing from Advanced Squad Leader [ASL]," says Charles Moylan, president of Big Time Software. According to him he "shifted the original design work to the front [of the development schedule], pushing the inclusion of copyrighted ASL materials (like scenarios, vehicle data, etc.) back to the very end of the schedule."

Since he maintains rights to the original portions of the project, this approach has allowed him to take all his design work to date with him; because of this, he says "we’re free and clear to continue development without skipping a beat. No delays!"

While he’s not talking about potential publishers yet, Moylan says he is in serious discussions, and that even now Big Time has the resources to complete the game, on its own, by Spring of 1999 (a "rough release date"). Computer Games Online contacted several known wargame publishers but at press time have spoken only with Jim Rose, president of TalonSoft, who said they were not at this time talking to Big Time (although Rose, upon hearing the news of the split with Avalon Hill, indicated he would be contacting Moylan soon).

CGO also spoke with Avalon Hill’s Eric Dott, who had little comment beyond confirming that Big Time would no longer be developing Computer Squad Leader. Neither Moylan nor Dott could comment for certain on the publication status of Big Time’s other development project for Avalon Hill, Whistling Death (the Pacific Theater follow-on to Over the Reich and Achtung! Spitfire), saying only that things were up in the air (Moylan did say that Big Time would continue development on the project after Combat Mission was finished).

7/15/98

[kipanderson]

Hi,

As it happens, seconds before typing this… I was heavily engrossed in building a CMBB map of the Barrikady factory complex from the Red Barricades ASL historical module . In turn, based on aerial photos… a great resource.

I go back to SL in 1977 and also have all the modules. In its day, undoubtedly the greatest of the cardboard wargames. But not even close to CM as a fun experience or a historical simulation, as military history. In my view.

Now, back to building a play ground for even more mass slaughter of my chums virtual men .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

PS. Keele University in the UK, has all the German wartime recon photos from the Eastern Front. And, you guessed it, they are scheduled to go online. Eventually .

[Sequoia]

This conversation leads me to wonder what Paradox is going to do with the Squad Leader lisence. Now I am a fan of the Europa Universalis series (not so much of Hearts of Iron). There is NO WAY Paradox is going to match Battlefront in creating a tactical game at the ASL/Combat Mission scale given Battlefront's years of experience and head start. I wonder what on earth Paradox is going to do with the lisence.

[RMC]

Well, they could just port the board game to the computer. Might be enough of a market for it. We don't really need another "interpretation" of SL/ASL. For the SL/ASL label to really mean anything I think they'd try to keep it identifiably a 2d board game on the PC.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by RMC:

Well, they could just port the board game to the computer. Might be enough of a market for it. We don't really need another "interpretation" of SL/ASL. For the SL/ASL label to really mean anything I think they'd try to keep it identifiably a 2d board game on the PC.

Joining the ASLML has really turned me back off of Squad Leader. The list seems to be inhabited solely by smarmy rules lawyers devoid of common sense or real world knowledge - prototypical "wargame geeks" who have nothing better to do with their time than cut each other to pieces and proclaim mastery of all things mortal and beyond because of their knowledge of a rule book.

I would be in favour of a direct to computer port of ASL - however, I think if they could do that while at the same time making the turns simultaneous, they might be much better off (sort of a 2D CM?)

[Battlefront.com]

RMC... wow... that was a blast from the past! And Charles was being so diplomatic too

The truth is, and there is no doubting this, that CM is not, and never ever was, based on SL/ASL in any way. Charles' original plan was to take SL/ASL and change it to something that would work from a computer standpoint. It was never, ever going to be a straight port. But long, LONG before the breakup with AH, Charles decided that SL/ASL was a hopeless case and that all it could do was hold him back from making a realistic and fun tactical wargame. AH was fine with that because they wanted something to replace the gaping hole Atomic's departure left.

At this point, somewhere around spring or summer of 1997, the thinking was to create a totally ground up game design using hexes and SL/ASL's scale. Then, once the game was done, to port SL/ASL's scenarios to it. But as the game design got further along and things at AH got worse this seemed to be a bad idea. Not only because AH would retain property rights to anything it owned, but also because it was highly unlikey that the SL/ASL scenarios would work (as is) in a game system that had nothing to do with SL/ASL. Balancing would be all wrong for starters.

As Charles got more and more into the coding for the game he found that hexes sucked to work with. After many much discussion he decided to bite the bullet and rewrite the engine to use square tiles instead of hexes. Good move

Soon after that Charles had a new test game that had the basic system you are all familiar with. Heck, I still have a playable version of this and every so often I boot it up for chuckles. This was in early 1998. It was at this time that I started working full time on CM instead of just helping Charles with higher level design work (and beer drinking!).

I visited AH back in 1995 and met wit the Dotts and even briefly met Don. It was an interesting experience. If any of you had the, uhm, pleasure of seeing AH's work place in person... well... you know why words fail to adequately describe it Picture an old 2 story auto garage with a 1940s grease monkey decor and that will almost get you there. But you can't get the full concept even if you can picture the artists yelling up through the huge hole in the floor (where the car lift ones used to be) to see what the designers wanted them to do next. Obviously OSHA never visited AH

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

One more thing... the first screenshots that were released were done so AFTER the breakup with AH. Up until that point nothing had been shown publically. The truth was the game simply wasn't ready for show and tell But when Charles ditched AH we decided that something had to be shown to people otherwise they would doubt if there was a game at all. So a couple of VERY premature screenshots were tossed out to the public. These were, I think, the same ones attached to the article RMC quoted. And by that time almost a year had gone by since Charles had formally ditched the thought (and that is all it was) of making a computerized SL/ASL game.

Steve

[JonS]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As Charles got more and more into the coding for the game he found that hexes sucked to work with. After many much discussion he decided to bite the bullet and rewrite the engine to use square tiles instead of hexes.

Just out of curiosity; did you ever consider using hex-shaped tiles?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Soon after that Charles had a new test game that had the basic system you are all familiar with. Heck, I still have a playable version of this and every so often I boot it up for chuckles. This was in early 1998. It was at this time that I started working full time on CM instead of just helping Charles with higher level design work (and beer drinking!).

I imagine a CMX1 trilogy release will happen someday - would it be possible, as a lure to those of us who have already bought the CM games, some multiple times including special editions, to include this original version in this trilogy release for us as well?

[dalem]

I remember reading patiently along the old website hoping I wasn't waiting for vaporware, and then you guys posted that little movie with the King Tiger.

Yummy.

-dale

[Battlefront.com]

I don't recall ever thinking about making hex tiles. The original system had big SL/ASL sized hexes with precision point locations within. Because of the latter feature it became obvious that the hex terrain tile was just silly to keep a hold of. Ditching that was a huge improvement for the game. If you guys think there are limitations in the current square tile based system, you ain't seen nuttin baby!

Charles thinks he long since ditched all the hex based builds he made, which is a real shame. The fairly early one I have after the terrain change doesn't have much of anything in it. It was still just a test bed for model building, user interface, TacAI, etc. It consisted of very little else than just the beginnings of the beginning. It was around this time, and from this environment, that we made the movies Dale mentioned. Those should still be around someplace.

There is already a CMx1 triple pack out in Europe. I don't know of we'll release the old build.... some idiot will likely think that it is a preview of CMx2

Steve

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

It was around this time, and from this environment, that we made the movies Dale mentioned. Those should still be around someplace.

I had them up until last year - I forgot to port them over when I did a HDD upgrade.

-dale

[JonS]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I don't recall ever thinking about making hex tiles. The original system had big SL/ASL sized hexes with precision point locations within. Because of the latter feature it became obvious that the hex terrain tile was just silly to keep a hold of. Ditching that was a huge improvement for the game. If you guys think there are limitations in the current square tile based system, you ain't seen nuttin baby!

Bugger - I thought you'd mis-understand the question. I didn't mean 'hexes' per-se, but 'hex-shaped tiles'. Functionlly exactly the same as the 20x20 square tiles we know and, er, love, but, well, hex-shaped instead of square. I can see pros and cons doing it that way (eg, how to handle the map edge?), and was wondering if it had even been considered. Sounds like it wasn't.

Cheers

Jon

[Battlefront.com]

Jon, still not sure I am getting your meaning. The initial system had huge hexes with an underlying grid (pixles, basically). So these were 'hex shaped tiles'. They made everything much more complicated and difficult than was necessary because hexes are, by their nature, more difficult to work with from a rules and programming standpoint. Charles quickly realized this, but it took a little while to realize that it was only getting worse and not better as he developed the game engine itself. So he bit the bullet and started over again with square shaped tiles.

What wasn't considered was making hexes within hexes, so to speak. In other words, one large SL/ASL sized hex tile made up of a gridwork of smaller hexes for moving units to and fro. This would have been counter productive.

BTW, a reminder to you guys... I designed a fair amount of CMx1's game system and I never, ever played SL or ASL. Like someone above, the plethora of nitty gritty rules scared me off of it. Plus, I was far more into operational and strategic level games at the time, such as Panzer Blitz, Blitzkrieg, and War in Russia.

Steve

[Brent Pollock]

...and Artillery Observation Aircraft (I can't convert one of my ASL scenarios until CM gets this).

Love reading the CM dev history notes from BFC.