How much does hull-down reduce the chance to hit?

[GreenAsJade]

How much does hull-down reduce the chance to hit?

I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find it!

It's important to know, because when you _do_ get hit, it's the turrent for sure... which is thin (usually!).

Is there some rule of thumb for knowing what tank would be better hull down or not?

Thanks!

GaJ.

[Redwolf]

You can see the hit chances in the editor with the LOS tool.

[Omi]

The idea is that if only the turret is visible to the enemy, it's a much smaller target than the complete hull and turret. But as you mentioned, if the tank does get hit, it will be on the turret. It's up to you check your tank's armor and dedice what's best in the circumstances.

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by redwolf:

You can see the hit chances in the editor with the LOS tool.

I can't see my enemy's chance to hit me!

That's why I was interested in a kind of rule of thumb.. "this kind of AFV gets this kind of improvement".

[Michael Emrys]

I think redwolf means to set up tests in the editor and record the results. He underestimates how lazy the rest of us are.

Michael

[Mattias]

A quick look at 500 meters indicates 1 : 1.5

That is, fully exposed the hit chance is about 50% higher than against the same vehicle hull down.

M.

[Michael Emrys]

That seems counter-intuitive at first glance considering that only about a third or a little more of a tank's frontal silhouette is the turret. I suppose they may be considering that in normal aspect (hull up) some portion of the hull is still obscured by vegetation etc. though.

Michael

[Joachim]

Search for PzIV or Pz-IV (IIRC in the CMBB forum). The tests were done for that vehicle. There are 2-3 threads. Guess there is the info and a link to the others in this one:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009490;p=3

Gruß

Joachim

[ May 03, 2004, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

That seems counter-intuitive at first glance considering that only about a third or a little more of a tank's frontal silhouette is the turret.

In hull-down position upper hull is still visible (and hittable), lower hull is not. This also allows Grant's and StuG's to fire from hull-down.

[Sergei]

Not really having anything to do with this, but just last week I learned that the game gives a greater hit chance when facing the side of a tank than when facing the front of a tank. Of course it should be that way, but it took me this long to notice in the game!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

That seems counter-intuitive at first glance considering that only about a third or a little more of a tank's frontal silhouette is the turret.

In hull-down position upper hull is still visible (and hittable), lower hull is not. This also allows Grant's and StuG's to fire from hull-down. </font>

[Sergei]

The CM hull-down is not a perfect hull-down. It is easier to achieve, and going behind a little wall is enough to provide "hull-down" status. In reality there'd be varying levels of protection, but that would be a bitch to manage for the player.

[Michael Emrys]

You are probably right about that. It would be nice if the new engine were able to accomodate more subtlety in that area though.

Michael

[MikeyD]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the often discussed "turret more easily penetrated than the hull" problem (I think with the PzIV?) that , in the opinion of some, make going for hull-down unwise because it increases the chance of a fatal turret shot, as opposed to receiving a non-penetrating hull strike. A combination of hull-down and loooong range is best because it really reduces your chance of being hit at all. Hull down at just 300m means your turret IS going to be hit.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the often discussed "turret more easily penetrated than the hull" problem (I think with the PzIV?) that , in the opinion of some, make going for hull-down unwise because it increases the chance of a fatal turret shot, as opposed to receiving a non-penetrating hull strike.

From Jade's initial post:

"It's important to know, because when you _do_ get hit, it's the turrent for sure... which is thin (usually!)."

From Omi's post (#3):

"But as you mentioned, if the tank does get hit, it will be on the turret. It's up to you check your tank's armor and dedice what's best in the circumstances."

Can I have some of the grass mod you're using?

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the often discussed "turret more easily penetrated than the hull" problem (I think with the PzIV?) that , in the opinion of some, make going for hull-down unwise because it increases the chance of a fatal turret shot, as opposed to receiving a non-penetrating hull strike. A combination of hull-down and loooong range is best because it really reduces your chance of being hit at all. Hull down at just 300m means your turret IS going to be hit.

This is the exact question that I've been alluding to the whole time.

If there is half the chance to hit you when you're hull down (say) but your turret armour is 1/3rd the thickness of your hull, then it sounds like you wanna stay hull up.... that's the judgement that I'm trying to make, and looking for rules of thumb for...

[Sergei]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

If there is half the chance to hit you when you're hull down (say) but your turret armour is 1/3rd the thickness of your hull, then it sounds like you wanna stay hull up....

Unless your hull will be penetrated just as easily...

Being "hull-up" doesn't stop turret being hit, either.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the often discussed "turret more easily penetrated than the hull" problem (I think with the PzIV?) that , in the opinion of some, make going for hull-down unwise because it increases the chance of a fatal turret shot, as opposed to receiving a non-penetrating hull strike. A combination of hull-down and loooong range is best because it really reduces your chance of being hit at all. Hull down at just 300m means your turret IS going to be hit.

This is the exact question that I've been alluding to the whole time.

If there is half the chance to hit you when you're hull down (say) but your turret armour is 1/3rd the thickness of your hull, then it sounds like you wanna stay hull up.... that's the judgement that I'm trying to make, and looking for rules of thumb for... </font>

[Dschugaschwili]

The link Joachim posted near the top of this thread ("PzIV tactics") contains a very detailled discussion of the topic at hand. Please read this thread first.

Dschugaschwili