Help, my men are being Massacred

[Blah Blah Blah]

I have been playing as the German's attacking. I have where I can used smoke to get my men within range. However, once there they get massacred.

In one instance I had laid down smoke and the unit had got within 30 meters of the enemy in a foxhole, this foxhole had been mortered for a while and was under constant MG42 heavy machine gun fire. Yet two seperate squads (one ofter the other) both veterans, were lost. Eventually the 3rd squad did the job with 3 men left. Apparently the enemy were standard troops with +1 experience.

I used the adavnce command for all the units, was this wrong?

Though the above is only one instance I do seem to be on the rough end of the stick almost all the time.

I always have MG42 machine guns setup before attacking. I will mortor the unit, or use artillery, however I always end up with writers cramp for all the letters I need to send to my men's loved ones.

The smoke never seems to be that effective when I use it! I laid down 2 full minutes of 81mm smoke and rushed my halve tracks accross the open about 90+ (might have been more) metres from the enemy up against the woods, with only a smoked out road the enemy's opening to shoot. But as my men get out of the 1/2 tracks and advance into the woods they suffer heavy losses.

I suck and I need help.

Cheers.

[General Bolt]

At this point I usually try the Alt-A command. Works every time!!!

[AC]

Disembarking under fire = lethal

SMG troops = lethal

You must have some of your squads overwatch while others advance. Advancing troops are not very good shots really. Try ordering the closest squad to fire at the enemy while 2 others advance. You can use phased movement with pauses or move in 60s "leaps".

[Akula2]

I suck too!

I'm in agreement about smoke. It isn't worth it's weight in HE. This used to hold true in the ancient ASL as well.

Was this unit in a trench just short of the crest of the hill?

Reverse slope trenches remain evil indeed.

Did you time your smoke correctly?

This is often the most difficult aspect of Combined Arms Warfare ... timing.

Were they naked at that 30m?

If so, the massacre was justified.

In my limited experience, the "Advance" command was correct, though the state of your unit's fatigue must be considered.

A "Tired" or "Tiring" unit isn't quite ready to make an assault over open ground.

I reckon you were either unlucky, or your firebase was too far off to be effective enough.

Unlucky just happens. Ideal positions for support weapons just happens too.

Smoke oftentimes leaves holes when one needs cover most. It also never lasts as long as we need it too.

Timing is key.

The nature of the beast I guess.

I know I can't coordinate these things 100% of the time or make the right guesses 100% of the time vs my opponents.

I'm being masssacred in a pbem right now because I made erroneous assumtions from the breifing.

-Leaky

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I tend to use run in this instance.

It gets them into cover just that bit quicker. Most are in position so quick that the enemy hasn't the time to fire. Those that aren't that lucky get shot up a bit more then if they are advancing but they then do revert to crawling making them lesser targets while their mates that were a bit quicker then them sort out the opposition.

Most times it works. If it doesn't one tends to get kicked around... badly.

Also try to let the smoke fall so close to the enemy that they not only fall in front of the enemy position but into it aswell. Not only could this offer protection for your troops all the way to safety but it might also cuts the enemy position in two in regards to their mutual fire support.

[Soddball]

81mm smoke isn't worth using. Run some tests to see how long 81mm smoke rounds last compared to 75mm smoke rounds. 75mm lasts much longer.

[sand digger]

This game is pretty vicious on those attacking at close range across open ground. You can do all the right things in attack and still get effectively obliterated.

CMAK defenders invariably are ace shots, have nerves of steel and take no account of their own likely fate. Or so it seems

[spartan1]

Supressive fire from other units is a must to my opinion. Smoke helps but is not the only answer.

Most of all I would try to supress with area fire the opponent. Area fire form other troops not advancing (1st squad advances, 2nd fires not moving), MGs area fire as well to suppress, artillery is ok but needs time and does not offer much vs a well trenched position in woods.

PS. In case you can spare some tanks even better to suppress with area fire.

[Other Means]

DFHE & suppressing fire. lots of it. also, don't attack straight at them. go to the side into cover, then attack them from there. the defenders will need to turn 90 degrees to the suppressing fire plus you wil have cover. any time you can get 90 degree or more seperation on an enemy you can break them pretty quickly.

[dieseltaylor]

Did you separate your squads away from each other , or where they all grouped and being suppressed whilst one was chewed up.

[Blah Blah Blah]

My squads were apart and not suppressed. I had at least 2 MG42's shooting at the enmy unit, though not specifically targeting it.

It was in the woods and I had my men advance on the foxhole.

[CombinedArms]

Suppressing the enemy is the key to any infantry attack--in this game and also, as I understand it--in real life.

The two HMGs firing at the enemy was a good start, but should be viewed as only a start. Enemy infantry in trenches are given lots of cover points and rightly so. They will hold where they are and mow you down when you get close--unless you can wear them down considerably first. How do you do that? Try, first of all area fire by the HMGs on the enemy trench. Approach with your infantry bounding from cover to cover. As your infantry gets closer, you should be able to pick up some visual contacts (as opposed to sound contacts) on the enemy in the trench. Now start shooting directly at the visible contact with all you've got (HMGs, the attacking squads, arty FO's if you've got 'em, tank or gun HE if you've got em, onboard mortars if you've got 'em). As you're blasting away, try to get more infantry closer to the trench (not the final attack--just a closer approach). Pick up more visual targets if you can. Start blasting those with direct fire. Observe to see the effect on the enemy units. Are they still shooting back? Then suppress them some more. Are they putting their heads down? Then try to break them. Keep pouring it on over several turns. Let's stay there's an enemy platoon in the trench. At this point some of them may have broken and all of them may be suppressed. This is the point at which you should consider an attack with infantry.

In CM defenders in trenches are very robust. Assume that it will take supressive fire over several turns to do any damage. Tank fire is your most effective weapon. After that, heavy artillery, mortars and HMGs. To attack trenches without major amounts of suppression is to invite a WWI style slaughter.

I think smoke can be useful in an attack but smoke is not really for the close assault--if the enemy is unsupressed, they'll just kill you when you become visible. Smoke is for the more distant advance, so a large group of infantry can cross to closer cover without getting pinned down.

[Blah Blah Blah]

CombinedArms,

They were in a foxhole not a trench. I had put in at least 30 mortor sheels, MG42 heavy machine gun fire and smoke.

[Blah Blah Blah]

I am playing this scenario again and I am plytesting my attacks and seeing how it goes again.

So far I have not attacked that unit.

[yacinator]

Yo Blah how close were your troops to the enemy?

When the got close were your mg42 still shooting at the enemy? If so, your own mgs might have killed your troops.

[Brent Pollock]

If you could still hit them with suppressing fire while dumping smoke on them, you weren't dumping enough smoke to blind them. Or were you trying to use smoke to screen the flanks of the axis of advance, rather than blind the target zone troops?

[Andrew H.]

Did you really have to clear out the foxholes? If possible, it's usually better to take a little longer, stay a little further away, and keep firing at the troops in the foxhole. Stay, say, 100 meters away (or as close to that as you can and still have LOS; 50-60m is okay, too). If you've fired for 2-3 turns and the enemy isn't firing back anymore, advance *one* squad to root out the defenders and cover him with the other squads. This takes longer, but you should suffer far fewer casualties with the odds you have. Remember that troops that move and fire don't fire as effectively as troops that stay still - and moving troops don't have as much cover, either.

[Blah Blah Blah]

The smoke was only on the approach of the attacking infantry. The MG42's etc all had a clear line of fire.

The attacking infantry made it into the wooded area without loss if I remmember correctly.

The 3 units attacked over several minutes one after another.

[MikeyD]

I don't know if its a wise idea but lately I've been splitting my squads into teams during assaults. Yes, you take a pretty big firepower hit but you also double the number of targets the enemy has to contend with. Instead of ALL your men being driven to ground during the attack a few teams often get a toe-hold on the objective, and can sit there and draw fire away from your second assault attempt. Plus, I've seen more enemy units get routed by attacks from multiple directions than simple head-on overwhelming force assaults.

Doesn't help much with the 'massacre' problem, though.

[sand digger]

Another problem with attacking infantry is that they often and quickly turn to rubbish once fired on. Start crawling around instead of the normal 'fight or flight' reaction. Funny that the defenders react in a much more resolute fashion. The game is too mechanically modelled in this regard.

For those who refer to WW1 style massacres it should be remembered that such 'massacres' invariably occurred when advancing over many yards of open ground for a considerable period of time, while under continuous heavy fire. Not the quick, short range stuff that is being discussed here.

[MikeyD]

The game (and perhaps real life, for all I know) does seem to favor raw firepower over infantry skills. Most successsful assaults played in the game usually go like this: You rolll a tank up, kill or supress everyone defending the objective, and the infantry walks in behind. Even short-distance unsupported infantry assaults against unsupressed infantry are murder.