xerxes Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Will bunkers still be easy to take out with small caliber guns and ATRs? Just wondering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Excellent question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melb_will Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 My guess would be yes. Seeing as they are treated as veichles I would think that fixing them up would be one of those things waiting for CMX2 along with relative spotting, horse, kitchen sinks etc. Will 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Actually guys Im pretty sure that this has been tweaked, along with vehicle rotation speeds slightly (one I noticed you metnioned somewhere redwolf ) plus a bunch of other stuff. I have had my head buried in other stuff so I can say with 100% certainty about the bunker, but Im *petty* sure I saw it was an update. Dan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 That would be great if Bunkers were fixed. A bunker on a hill would become something to be feared. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Beginna Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by xerxes: That would be great if Bunkers were fixed. A bunker on a hill would become something to be feared. Hmmm, the Italians had a number of bunkers which had no firing slits. Don't place them on a hilltop. Just my $0.02 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by KwazyDog: Actually guys Im pretty sure that this has been tweaked, along with vehicle rotation speeds slightly (one I noticed you metnioned somewhere redwolf ) plus a bunch of other stuff. I have had my head buried in other stuff so I can say with 100% certainty about the bunker, but Im *petty* sure I saw it was an update. Dan Sound cools, Dan. Thanks for the notice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Bunkers in CMAK certainly ain't invulnerable now. A 37mm HE round through the firing slit is still a 37mm HE round through the firing slit. And let's not forget by 1945 the Brits were starting to ship Churchill ARVE bunker-busters over to Italy. It looks like unprotected bunkers in open country are still going to be short-lived. The old solution of limited overlapping fields of fire for bunkers remains the best way to go. [ November 06, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 MikeyD, no doubt. All we want is that to kill a bunker or pillbox you will move the big guns in, not the small ones, including AT rifles, like you do in CMBB now. We want a realistic tactical tradeoff, and that means high-HE units must be by far the best way to get rid of pillboxes (or closing in with engineers). CMBO and CMBB are treating a small-caliber penetration like it hits the back of a turret and ricochetts, not hitting a remote back wall of a bunker. If you play CMBB with 75mm+ guns only things look pretty good. But allow 20mm vehicles and they die like flies. The only other thing would be spotting. A log bunker in vegetables in uneven ground should be pretty hard to spot before they open fire, not far more than a gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted November 7, 2003 Author Share Posted November 7, 2003 ARVE's smashing bunkers is exactly what I'd want. Heck, that's why that special purpose bunker busting tank was developed! Wouldn't make much sense to develop an entirely new tank when any old 20mm gun would do the job at 1% of the price. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I did a quick test of the Beta. Churchill ARVEs can smash a bunker from any angle (no need for firing slit penetrations) as long as they can get close enough actually hit the thing with that big petard bomb. They're loads of fun to play with, by the way. 75mm and 6 pdr guns at under 500m make quick work of bunkers in my short test. 37mm and 2 pdrs take a bit more time but I wouldn't want to be the bunker occupants while they were being worked on. I didn't try automatic weapons (playing Allies they are not all that available) and anti-tank rifles in Italy are as rare as hen's teeth. An interesting point, I had to play NO fog-of-war to guarantee that my guns could see the bunkers to target them. Perhaps that's the trade-off, BFC assumes the bunkers are properly camou'd and make them harder to spot than usual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by MikeyD: ...anti-tank rifles in Italy are as rare as hen's teeth.True enough, but they were common in NA through the middle of 1942 if "Tobruk" is to be believed. Period photos appear to confirm this. Michael [ November 07, 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Mickey, can you do a test comparing how long it takes to take down a wooden MG bunker and a MG in a trench? Obviously the bunker should last longer regardless of the weapon used. [ November 07, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 What's this ARVE everyone's talking about? Is it a version of Churchill AVRE that I've never heard of? Will it be included in CMAK? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Sergei: What's this ARVE everyone's talking about?You've never heard of the Astro-Rabbit Vector Enveloper? It was one of those secret Nazi weapons that Hitler was sure would win the war. It never made it off the drawing boards, but BFC has thoughtfully included it for those interesting what-if scenarios so dear to the heart of ardent CMers. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Here's a Churchill site. ARVE pictures enclosed: http://www.armourinfocus.co.uk/a22/index.htm The mortar bomb was externally loaded through the hull machinegunner's hatch, and was referred to as the "flying dustbin" because thatt's just about what it looked like flying through the air. Large proportion of HE to casing, a whopper of a HEAT charge. The Churchill ARVE is available in CMBO (at a somewhat earlier date than CMAK). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 AVRE!!! For the love of god, AVRE!!! Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers, if I'm not mistaken. I consider it bad grace to point out errors like this (in part because my English suffers from the odd error ) but once it gets repeated that often, I fear we have another Liebstandarte on our hands and we need to stamp it out as quick as possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 It's Babra, Sarge! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma (formerly Tweety): AVRE!!! For the love of god, AVRE!!! Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers, if I'm not mistaken.You are not mistaken. I think MikeyD must have missed his morning coffee. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I think this is an example of how a word can be jmluebd up, but can still be raed if the frsit and lsat lteters are correct 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Just to get the discussion back in line. There are two types of bunkers/pillboxes: 1) wooden constructs 2) concrete constructs The wooden bunkers should always always offer more protection than a trench, because they are basically constructs on top of a trench. Why would anybody construct the bunker on top of the trench if it wasn't an advantage. They should have a low profile (basically always be hulldown in vehicle terms, because the earth around it will always be pulled up to the firing slits if it isn't deep enough anyway). I don't know much abour concrete bunkers and ways to destroy concrete bunkers. But it is pretty clear from my reading that you move in the big guns, not the small ones when you have a bunker to remove. I also know that normal units with 75mm DF guns and 105mm indirect fire were often forced to destory them by hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: Snipped: The wooden bunkers should always always offer more protection than a trench, because they are basically constructs on top of a trench. Why would anybody construct the bunker on top of the trench if it wasn't an advantage. Well, perhaps the bunker provided better protection from artillery than a trench, at the cost of providing a bigger target to direct fire HE. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: I don't know much abour concrete bunkers and ways to destroy concrete bunkers. But it is pretty clear from my reading that you move in the big guns...Bunkers come in various flavors. Even the Germans alone had about five major types that they built during the war. But you are generally correct. I know that at one point the US Army was using SP 155mm cannon as bunker busters to get through the Westwall. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted November 8, 2003 Author Share Posted November 8, 2003 What an interesting tidbit. So if you're playing with full fog of war, you're having a hard time IDinng the bunker (at longish ranges I presume)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Determinant Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma (formerly Tweety): AVRE!!! For the love of god, AVRE!!! Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers, if I'm not mistaken. Was it not originally Assault Vehicle Royal Engineers? Later turned to Armoured VRE in an early display of political correctness? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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