Combat Mission: Afrika Korps licensed by the Australian Department of Defence!

[Seanachai]

This out-pouring of hate from Australians...wipes away a tear...well, it makes it all worthwhile, somehow.

The knowledge that each and every one of you lot are waiting for me to someday be rich enough to visit your festively drunken pseudo-nation before I die, well, it keeps me going.

Mayhap if I tell me aging and somewhat confused Mum that nothing would make me happier than an airline ticket to Australia, she might so forget herself as to fritter away the inheritance of the more deserving grandchildren by sending me to a land Down Under.

If she's grown that daft, I want it understood that every bloody beer will be paid for before I'm given a righteous kicking...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

LOL

I mentioned that before also. I don't think we're supposed to talk about the "public" patch publicly....

Why haven't you been deported to a Commonwealth Penal Colony. That's what I'd like to know.

Bet you've got a picture of the Queen right by your bed. </font>

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by jrcar:

And Seanachai when are you dropping in? There is a long line up to "welcome" you.

Cheers

Rob

Would this line of Aussies all be holding a tinnie in one hand and a thong (item of footware not underwear) in the other?

Regards

Jim R.

[jrcar]

Jim I was thinking 2x4... a proper welcome.

The Gnome deserves no less.

Cheers

Rob

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by jrcar:

Jim I was thinking 2x4... a proper welcome.

The Gnome deserves no less.

Cheers

Rob

Could there be a better, stronger, or more certain foundation for a life-long relationship than hate? If there is, I don't want to know about it...

Australians are the coolest

People in the world

Let's all go down under

With strings of colored pearls

And lay them at the feet

Of the heirs of English crime

And listen to old Men At Work

And have a real good time

And we dug until we hit the rocks

Then we threw away the spade

And built a platform to get a better view

Of the Thanksgiving Day Parade

"Thanksgiving Day Parade"

-Dan Bern

[Pinetree]

Everyone knows if you want an intelligent conversation in Australia,you go and talk to a Kiwi.

[Alistair C]

Originally posted by Pinetree:

Everyone knows if you want an intelligent conversation in Australia,you go and talk to a Kiwi.

Yeah, that makes sense.

With a country that doesn't have an airforce to speal of. Couldn't afford to upkeep the old A-4 Skyhawks hey!

Didn't we regard NZ as a possible liability in one of our recent DoD papers?

At least you guys make good Beer!

Alistair

Australia

PS - Any disrespect in regards to any involvement of our ANZAC's, whether relating to service history, deeds or actions is not "on". :mad:

And I'm spent.

[JonS]

And here, dear viewer, we have yet another outstanding example of the non sequitur from a denizen of that big, dry, red place.

No, not Mars. The other big, dry, red place.

[Pinetree]

At least he used correct grammar with no spelling mistakes!I'm impressed.

[JonS]

What about 'speal' and 'Beer'? The structure ain't that flash either.

[Pinetree]

Oops missed the "speal",but I understand the Beer part.I think of Beer as something holy as well!

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Pinetree:

Oops missed the "speal",but I understand the Beer part.I think of Beer as something holy as well!

Of course you do. Do you know what you get if you keep an Australian away from beer for too long?

An Englishman.

Once they sober up, they can't even communicate with each other.

[Private Bluebottle]

Them is speakin' words, them is! How dare youse blokes say I'm just a wet pom? My grate-grate-granddad was brought here in chains. The moment he stepped ashore, he was an Aussie, through and through and his chains were struck off and a stubbie shoved in his hand! He drunk a loyal toast to Australia and my family has never looked back. His crime to be transported? Strikin' a senior officer in the bloody Pommie army. Good on yer mate! Just what them Poms deserved.

As for yer intended visit to Oz, mate, I'd welcome yer on the wharf with a slab, a bucket o' prawns and barbie full o'snags. Then I'd kick the sh*t out yer, in the nicest possible way o' course, yer loveable bastard. Bring yer ol' mum as well, she can join the missus over at the salad table and watch the fun.

Now watch out the red-back don' bite yer on the goolies when yer go to the dunny, OK?

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Pinetree:

Everyone knows if you want an intelligent conversation in Australia,you go and talk to a Kiwi.

Funny, I was always told if you wanted certain illegal substances, you asked a Kiwi. :eek:

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by JonS:

And here, dear viewer, we have yet another outstanding example of the non sequitur from a denizen of that big, dry, red place.

No, not Mars. The other big, dry, red place.

Those who live on the Sydney break-water should be careful...

[average]

Gibson, they are M1A1Ds are they not ? I'm no tankie but I understood from what defence has been saying that they are ex national gaurd assets which have been lying around in inventory. We are paying something like 600 million for 48 second hand tanks. For that money you could get twice the number of leos plus spares.

Australia loves America, we give you money to build overweight fighters that may not even work properly. Buy colt carbines at a unit price of close to 10 000 a pop (if you don't believe me , its true, we paid that much the m4a5s). You tell us our comms and command systems need to be interoperable and defence reaches for the visa card. Old tanks at a little over twice or three times market value and a spares package that from what i've heard is almost bait pricing.

All the kiwis are good for is motivation, I look at them and go jesus , I hope Australia never goes the same way.

[Richie]

Hmmmm...

The Abrams we are buying are pre loved and it's true, we may get a better deal on Ebay but at least they're tried and tested...

The M1 is a good tank!

When was the latest Leopard tested in combat...

hmmm... NEVER!!?

*sigh*, and you go the Kiwi's too?

[average]

When has the M1 being tested against latest generation ATGMs and front line munitions ?

Its like saying our tatics are sound because the army never got done by the militia in timor.

Battle tested against 2nd world armies using equipment made prior to the end of the cold war. The service life of these tanks takes them well past the stage were systems like the javelin will be in common circulation.

Why do all the Euro armies, most of whom hate the germans opt for the Leo ?

[Richie]

I wouldn't say they hate the Germans, but they probably suffer from an anti American mindset. How much US gear do they use? Besides, it's economically sensible for them to buy hardware from their neighbour.

Who has bought and is using the Leo BTW?

[Sergei]

Of course we hate the Krauts, but the only alternatives would be US (Abrams), French (Leclerc) or Russian (T-80), and we hate them even more. The Brits we hate only in an amount equal with Germans, but they don't even have any car industries left so probably the production of Challengers has ended as well. Another reason is that we are trying to disarm Germany by buying away all the weapons that they have.

Furthermore, Leopard has been around for much longer than Abrams (Mark 1 since 1963, Mark 2 since 1979). Many of the countries that had Leopard 1's have eventually bought Leopard 2's (I don't know if Abrams was even on sale for others until 1990's). This has resulted in that Leopard is the most common NATO MBT (at least by number of countries using it, I don't know how many have been produced). And of course many countries like to buy old NATO junk, like Finland which just bought old Leo 2's. Leopard is probably also a more economical choice for countries with no domestic oil production.

[gibsonm]

Gentlemen (and ladies),

Its inappropriate for a serving officer to sledge an official purchase.

All that I can tell you is that most of the Corp wanted something that has a lineage back to a Panzerkampwagen (partly because we have taken years to learn the German terms for the parts and components).

However I understand part of the deal with the US is “you buy our vehicles and if you deploy as part of a coalition again just bring the guys”.

In other words the Abrams here become home trainers and in the event of conflict we can fly the crews to pre-positioned US equipment (ala reforger) and man their gear. This is obviously much better logistically for us compared to shipping our own MBT’s overseas and then having to clean them up before bringing them back in (the Aust Quarrantine Service would examine them in microscopic detail).

In any event Leopard 1 is showing its age and we needed a new platform. The Govt has decided to go for Abrams and I for one am looking forward to a new piece of kit.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

In other words the Abrams here become home trainers and in the event of conflict we can fly the crews to pre-positioned US equipment (ala reforger) and man their gear. This is obviously much better logistically for us compared to shipping our own MBT’s overseas and then having to clean them up before bringing them back in (the Aust Quarrantine Service would examine them in microscopic detail).

Is that going to work if you get M1A1s, and the pre-positioned ones are most likely M1A2? :confused:

[Richie]

Gibsonm, that's a great point. That makes much tactical sense. I don't know for sure but I don't think there would be too much diference between the A1 and the A2. Bigger gun but the same layout in general..? I don't know for sure.

I'm surprised they don't bump the Leo 1's to the reserves though... I guess it all boils down to cost in the end.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Richie:

Gibsonm, that's a great point. That makes much tactical sense. I don't know for sure but I don't think there would be too much diference between the A1 and the A2. Bigger gun but the same layout in general..? I don't know for sure.

I'm surprised they don't bump the Leo 1's to the reserves though... I guess it all boils down to cost in the end.

There is a huge difference between A1 and A2 in terms of digital sensors. A1 is a ‘dumb” tank (apart from ballistic computer laser, etc.). A2 is “digitized” (i.e. linked into the digital battlefield).

In an A1 you see the enemy you send in a contact report and your boss marks it on a map.

In an A2 your locations are all on a screen (thanks to GPS) in the Squadron commander‘s turret. You contact the enemy and lase him and his position appears on everyone in the Squadron’s screen (Borg spotting if you will). Orders are sent digitally to commanders and traces are no longer copied onto maps at O Gps but appear on the commander’s screen.

Situational awareness, flexibility and accuracy go up exponentially (until of course the electronics that do all the linking and built by the lowest bidder go on the fritz! or are jammed).

The A2 has a better sighting system for the commander where he can select and designate future targets for the gunner while he is dealing with the current one.

Externally they look very similar but the A2 is far more effective than the A1 (which wasn’t too shabby to begin with).

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

However I understand part of the deal with the US is “you buy our vehicles and if you deploy as part of a coalition again just bring the guys”.

In other words the Abrams here become home trainers and in the event of conflict we can fly the crews to pre-positioned US equipment (ala reforger) and man their gear. This is obviously much better logistically for us compared to shipping our own MBT’s overseas and then having to clean them up before bringing them back in (the Aust Quarrantine Service would examine them in microscopic detail).

It also means that our defence forces are in danger of once more becoming the Janissaries of Washington. I fought long and hard in the 1960s to see an end to that. I've no desire to see it return.

The worst aspect of it is that it now limits our government's foreign policy options - either we work in concert with Washington or we are stuck with vehicles which are completely inappropriate to our strategic environment.

We can't use them for the defence of Australia because our infrastructure will not support their transport around the nation (interesting that the Army recently held an exercise in South Australia where they shipped Leopard AS1s down from Darwin on the Ghan, showing its defence utility). We can't use them for intervention in our region, as we lack the means to transport them and anyway, they're far too heavy for deployment in most of the region anyway (if you think Oz has poor infrastructure, let me introduce you to Oceania!).

This purchase is more to do with saving JWH's embarassement after he promised an "armoured brigade group" back in 2002 for possible use in the intervention in Iraq. It has little to do with sound strategic thinking.

We may have needed a new MBT but the Abrahms was not the right one. Not even the Leopard II was the right one. What we need is something about the size/weight of a Leopard AS1, with improved protection. We do not need a 120mm gun.