God, the Borg and the art of relative spotting.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Not sure if platoon commanders in all armies would get have gotten 1:50k maps as a matter of course. Strikes me as unlikely, except when we are talking very specific operations (e.g. Overlord or Market Garden).

In contrast there were armies which could give the platoon commanders 1:20/25k maps as a matter of course.

They may of course have rough sketch drawings, and may have walked the ground (if defending).

What was the SOP when dishing out details to the squads ? Quickly written notes giving key terrain locations and approximate distances from current location and each other ?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Tero:

What was the SOP when dishing out details to the squads ? Quickly written notes giving key terrain locations and approximate distances from current location and each other ?

I've seldom heard of more than the sergeant pointing and saying, "You and you go here. You and you over there. And all of keep an eye on the head of that draw. The rest of you follow me." Or something like that.

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

Did you consider doing houses - in fact all buildings - in a manner similar to CMBB factories? IOW, a fairly limited pallet of 'house pieces' that can be assembled in a variety of creative ways?

My objection to this—and I suspect Andreas' as well—is that while factory buildings tended to be rather bland, standardized structures (or at least often enough to be treated that way), most other kinds of buildings, whether domiciles or public buildings tended to be rather more individualistic (exceptions such as row houses noted). Unless you have a rather large kit of "parts" I think it would be rather hard to make convincing looking models of all the varieties. Remember, the "parts" that buildings have to be assembled from have to harmonize so that they look like they would belong together (architectural montrosities again noted).

Michael </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Tero:

Originally posted by Andreas:

Not sure if platoon commanders in all armies would get have gotten 1:50k maps as a matter of course. Strikes me as unlikely, except when we are talking very specific operations (e.g. Overlord or Market Garden).

In contrast there were armies which could give the platoon commanders 1:20/25k maps as a matter of course.

Yes, but if you are thinking of the same army I am, I would argue that is a rather special case.

Originally posted by Tero:

They may of course have rough sketch drawings, and may have walked the ground (if defending).

What was the SOP when dishing out details to the squads ? Quickly written notes giving key terrain locations and approximate distances from current location and each other ?

No idea. Whatever it was, I would be surprised if it looked much like what was written in the field manuals.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Yes, but if you are thinking of the same army I am, I would argue that is a rather special case.

Special case or not a full on historically and techically accurate simulation can not disregard the undisputable, quantifiable fact that the-we-both-know-which-army did it does not make it irrelevant or an outlier.

No idea. Whatever it was, I would be surprised if it looked much like what was written in the field manuals.

In squaddie training we were instructed to name key terrain locations and distances (known or guestimated) to them when assigning firing sectors. The platoon leader (with the 1:20/25k map ) had determined the approximate line or there were prepared defences as the case may be and we squaddies were shown the relevant key terrain locations (patch of forest, field, farm house, shed, large rock, dike/ditch etc) on the map. At the same time the fire plan was made known to us and we got the TRP names (much easier to remember than proper coordinates) in case we had to call in fire.

AFAIK this had been the SOP during the war. If you have seen the movie Winter War the squaddie work in it is historically accurate.

[Thomm]

First of all, thanks for all the answers, Steve!

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yes and no. Buildings are much more detailed than in CMx1, but internal fighting within a building will still be abstracted to a large degree. Continuing to use abstractions with buildings is necessary for a variety of reasons. If CMx1 is on one extreme and a real house is on the other extreme, CMx2 will be somewhere in the middle.

From the bits of information (1:1, basic for m of staircases, much more detailed) I form the following image of CMx2 houses:

</font>

• Individual rooms *are* modeled</font>
• Furniture is "abstracted", the rooms, therefore, look empty.</font>
• Houses have well-defined entry-points (doors)</font>
• changing floors is only possible via staircases</font>
• Windows are modeled as a consequence of 1:1 modeling?!</font>

Maybe I got it right?!

Can't wait to see the grenades flying ...

Best regards,

Thomm

[Mace]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Hmmmm... what to say about buildings.... what not to say... that is the question

There was no question mark, so perhaps it was a statement?

Now while we're on the subject of building damage modelling, *inserts smiley *, the CMx1 series dealt with it by allocating damage across the entire structure, rather than the face that took the most damage.

Hence will building damage be enhanced in CMx2? (ie can we have cases where a wall collapses on one facing while the rest of the structure remains standing)

Mace

[WineCape]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

For those who don't know... pixies are on the right. They work for free powered by magical pixie dust. On the left are people that (gasp!) expect to get paid, sleep occasionally, and are largely powered by various things like beer, scons, BBQ, beer, and coffee (in at least one case). The guys on the left aren't nearly as magical, but then again they don't have to worry as much about the bug zappers in people's back yards Steve

WINE!

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Now how about nice Waterfalls and ceremonial Fountains and Hanging Gardens? Ochards? Vinyards? Olive Groves?

And naked slave girls. Don't forget the naked slave girls.

Michael </font>

[Battlefront.com]

First, I must send my profound apologies to WineCape. It is true that WINE is also a fuel used to create CM products, especially since Charles switched off beer several years ago (something about concern over growing love handles ).

Wartgamer... dang it man! I already edited my post once because you switched it around while I was composing. That's OK though because I figured there was about a 90% chance you'd switch it again and felt I could live with it if you did Now, back to business...

Don't worry about things looking too generic. Think of all the artwork that was in the first three CMx1 games in terms of building textures. Now think of "building kits" for each type of building. Now think of each "kit" as being far more detailed than anything in CMx1 in terms of the 3D models. So... in CMx1 buildings will look a lot more realistic AND varied, but aesthetically as well as functionally.

Rollstoy listed off:

? Individual rooms *are* modeled

? Furniture is "abstracted", the rooms, therefore, look empty.

? Houses have well-defined entry-points (doors)

? changing floors is only possible via staircases

? Windows are modeled as a consequence of 1:1 modeling?!

Pretty darned close. The first point about individual rooms being modeled is not exactly accurate. They will be modeled in a very limited way, the rest abstracted.

Building damage will be far more detailed. It is a two part system. One part tracks/shows damage to individual components of a building, the other part tracks structural integrity of parts of the building (including the building itself, of course). For example, you might blow out the 2nd story wall and that is that. But if you blow out the 1st story wall perhaps both it AND the 2nd story wall come tumbling down. Depends entirely on circumstances as one might expect.

Somewhere in this or another thread there was a question about the Z aspect of the world's "mesh". Yes, Z aspect is also simulated. Now when you get a crater that is 1m deep and 10m in diameter there will, in effect, be a big visual "chunk" taken out of the map's terrain mesh. This is something that was simply not possible to do with CMx1's terrain since the underlying mesh for a 20x20m section was a single square. Now the underlying mesh (if I got my math right ) 400 squares. That opens up all sorts of possibilities.

Steve

[ March 08, 2005, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[aka_tom_w]

never mind

[ March 08, 2005, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[aka_tom_w]

SO what are you telling us?

No Orion Slave Girls???...

-tom w

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

First, I must send my profound apologies to WineCape. It is true that WINE is also a fuel used to create CM products, especially since Charles switched off beer several years ago (something about concern over growing love handles ).

Wartgamer... dang it man! I already edited my post once because you switched it around while I was composing. That's OK though because I figured there was about a 90% chance you'd switch it again and felt I could live with it if you did Now, back to business...

Don't worry about things looking too generic. Think of all the artwork that was in the first three CMx1 games in terms of building textures. Now think of "building kits" for each type of building. Now think of each "kit" as being far more detailed than anything in CMx1 in terms of the 3D models. So... in CMx1 buildings will look a lot more realistic AND varied, but aesthetically as well as functionally.

Rollstoy listed off:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />? Individual rooms *are* modeled

? Furniture is "abstracted", the rooms, therefore, look empty.

? Houses have well-defined entry-points (doors)

? changing floors is only possible via staircases

? Windows are modeled as a consequence of 1:1 modeling?!

Pretty darned close. The first point about individual rooms being modeled is not exactly accurate. They will be modeled in a very limited way, the rest abstracted.

Building damage will be far more detailed. It is a two part system. One part tracks/shows damage to individual components of a building, the other part tracks structural integrity of parts of the building (including the building itself, of course). For example, you might blow out the 2nd story wall and that is that. But if you blow out the 1st story wall perhaps both it AND the 2nd story wall come tumbling down. Depends entirely on circumstances as one might expect.

Somewhere in this or another thread there was a question about the Z aspect of the world's "mesh". Yes, Z aspect is also simulated. Now when you get a crater that is 1m deep and 10m in diameter there will, in effect, be a big visual "chunk" taken out of the map's terrain mesh. This is something that was simply not possible to do with CMx1's terrain since the underlying mesh for a 20x20m section was a single square. Now the underlying mesh (if I got my math right ) 400 squares. That opens up all sorts of possibilities.

Steve </font>

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

First, I must send my profound apologies to WineCape. It is true that WINE is also a fuel used to create CM products, especially since Charles switched off beer several years ago (something about concern over growing love handles ).

While WineCape is certainly due props for his generous donations of creativity-inducing libations to the BFC crew, I am concerned there is a lack of diversity here.

Therefore, I propose that the Forum brewers get together and send the forth a "Fanboy Sampler" of beers.

If Charles is concerned about love handles, I'm sure one of us can create something relatively low-carb and high alcohol so the brain-in-a-jar can get his buzz on with relatively few unnecessary calories.

Dirtweasle, Admiral Keth & our other resident brewers, what say you? I don't have much in stock right now, but give be a couple months to brew up, and I'm in for a few bottles. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Wartgamer]

The actual 10 meter diameter crater is approx 78-79 m^2 so it would take that many 1 m^2 tiles to represent it.

And what is 200 squares?????

A 20m by 20m tiles is 400m^2????

Does any one care to know the volume of the crater?

And the pixie thing is just fine the way it is.

[Thomm]

Cool info!

The last two paragraphs alone imply sooo much thought and coding that I do not want to start thinking about it!! Nor do I think that follow-up questions will reveal more details !

In any case: This is going to be an amazing game!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Battlefront.com]

Hehe... yes, I should have written 400 squares. But this time it wasn't bad math... it was bad editing. I had started the example based on the 10x10m crater thingy, then got sidetracked and didn't make an edit

We are going to have to be somewhat careful about deformable terrain. While it might not add anything to deform some stuff, like uneven terrain (i.e. deforming something deformed doesn't likely decrease optimizations) certainly it can become an issue. We'll just have to see how that bit goes since we haven't done any "real world" stress testing yet.

Hmmm... beer sampler... good idea But I warn you, I'm a Belgian beer style snob. Not that I ever turn down a good non-Belgian beer

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Rollstoy,

The damage modeling is going to be fairly simplistic and not very scientific for practical reasons. However, the basic properties of the building, type of damage, and where the damage happens should be enough factors to produce a wide range of expected and unexpected outcomes. CMx1 had most of this in place, but it was too simplistic in terms of the outcomes (i.e. an all over damage effect). One can think of this as little more than CMx1 damage modeling but applied to specific walls instead of the building as a whole.

Steve

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Somewhere in this or another thread there was a question about the Z aspect of the world's "mesh". Yes, Z aspect is also simulated. Now when you get a crater that is 1m deep and 10m in diameter there will, in effect, be a big visual "chunk" taken out of the map's terrain mesh. This is something that was simply not possible to do with CMx1's terrain since the underlying mesh for a 20x20m section was a single square. Now the underlying mesh (if I got my math right ) 400 squares. That opens up all sorts of possibilities.

Steve

Excellent stuff. I thought that might be the case. Thanks Steve. Looking forward to the "all sorts of possibilities" this allows

[aka_tom_w]

Building damage will be far more detailed. It is a two part system. One part tracks/shows damage to individual components of a building, the other part tracks structural integrity of parts of the building (including the building itself, of course). For example, you might blow out the 2nd story wall and that is that. But if you blow out the 1st story wall perhaps both it AND the 2nd story wall come tumbling down. Depends entirely on circumstances as one might expect.

and

The damage modeling is going to be fairly simplistic and not very scientific for practical reasons. However, the basic properties of the building, type of damage, and where the damage happens should be enough factors to produce a wide range of expected and unexpected outcomes. CMx1 had most of this in place, but it was too simplistic in terms of the outcomes (i.e. an all over damage effect). One can think of this as little more than CMx1 damage modeling but applied to specific walls instead of the building as a whole.

Steve

That sounds Great

[WineCape]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

First, I must send my profound apologies to WineCape. It is true that WINE is also a fuel used to create CM products, especially since Charles switched off beer several years ago (something about concern over growing love handles

That's better; for your health too...

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The damage modeling is going to be fairly simplistic and not very scientific for practical reasons. However, the basic properties of the building, type of damage, and where the damage happens should be enough factors to produce a wide range of expected and unexpected outcomes. CMx1 had most of this in place, but it was too simplistic in terms of the outcomes (i.e. an all over damage effect). One can think of this as little more than CMx1 damage modeling but applied to specific walls instead of the building as a whole.

I do not care anymore!

Just make that year pass quickly!!!!!

Best regards,

Thomm

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Hmmm... beer sampler... good idea But I warn you, I'm a Belgian beer style snob. Not that I ever turn down a good non-Belgian beer

Steve [/QB]

Belgian it is then!!

I brew mostly British Isles Ales and Ciders, but I'm planning on doing a Belgian this summer; Belgians are more tolerant of higher ambient air temperatures while they're brewing.

Most Belgians do have a rather long conditioning time, though, so it probably won't be ready to drink until sometime after CMX2 is released, but hey, good things come to those who wait!

Cheers,

YD

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Hehe... yes, I should have written 400 squares. But this time it wasn't bad math... it was bad editing. I had started the example based on the 10x10m crater thingy, then got sidetracked and didn't make an edit

Steve

10m by 10m = 100m^2, oh forget it. No more Beer for you!

[Battlefront.com]

Scary thing is... beer might improve my math

YankeeDog,

Sounds like a good project!

Most Belgians do have a rather long conditioning time, though, so it probably won't be ready to drink until sometime after CMX2 is released, but hey, good things come to those who wait!

I've got some Belgian style ales here that I'm supposed to resist drinking for 3-4 years for optimal flavor. The only way I am going to do that is if I give them to a random friend and tell them to stash 'em in someone else's basement so I can't find the bloody things until they are ready. Or I could just drink 'em now in their excellent, though not optimal state. Hmmm... choices, choices, choices

Steve

[JonS]

Originally posted by Tero:

In contrast there were armies which could give the platoon commanders 1:20/25k maps as a matter of course.

Yes, quite right. What were those Germans thinking, trying to take over the world with crappy maps. Rex Fendick, pn commander 3rd Div, still has a fine collection of the 1:25k maps he was issued, stretching from Caen to Bremen.